Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.
|
one wire alternator |
Post Reply | Page <1 23456> |
Author | ||
304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9082 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I thought 10SI had a higher voltage rating at idle. If so the idle is low enough to barely charge, using voltage as the driving force over the charge current. There is a fine line on balancing voltage, over the charge current. It works but in the long run premature failure can happen. The charging system is based on providing proper voltage to maintain battery and current to drive accessories. When alternator cannot provide enough current at idle will drop on voltage when loaded. The battery can hide the sagging voltage and current within a fine boundary. Current exceeds alternator output, the battery will provide. Until the battery shows weakness in capacity, then the light with turn on. Thus the faint light when at idle with any alternator. There Is an improper balance. Either fault with charging circuit or battery is on its way out. Most newer and more higher rated alternators produce 14.6v at idle with +20AMP output. Because of such output, a worn battery seems fine when looking at the system while in operation. The only sure fire way is to determine further is to test the battery on the bench with a load tester. |
||
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
||
billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
LOL - basic electricity - stop over-thinking it! Google and Bing won't help much as there's more misinformation out there than fact due to marketing and the street rodders, etc.
Don't confuse things with guess and conjecture dude. Your third sentence makes no sense at all - none. Zip. The battery is a load - and that load varies with the current charge of the battery, battery type, age, etc. So the current is a factor of the battery as a load and the REGULATED voltage. 10si - higher voltage rating than WHAT? Come on, you aren't even close. >>Current exceeds alternator output, the battery will provide. Until the battery shows weakness in capacity, then the light with turn on<< Huh? Nope - the light comes on when the voltage at the ign side of the bulb exceeds that of the voltage at the diode trio, or REG terminal. So if the battery or system voltage is higher than the alternator output at that terminal, the light comes on. Until the battery shows weakness in capacity? Please stop guessing and once again, confusing issues!! >>You get longer life, better results running around 50% of the rated output.<< Uh, check again, that's what is happening with the stock systems. You aren't running them hard at all. They don't even get hot. As long as the alternator can stay cool it will last a very long time even running half-capacity or a bit more and check the numbers below - stock is totally safe there (unless the vehicle is modified) Beware of information on the web- anyone can create pages that say anything and marketing folks will sell you a 200 amp unit because you need it HAHA. What KILLS alternators is this - bad batteries or cars that are NOT maintained and START HARD. Alternators are NOT battery chargers! To crank until the battery is low and then shrug and mumble "that's ok, the alternator will charge it" - that's your killer. And we know there are some reading this NOW who do that very thing. Crank it for a while, let the alternator charge it. Nope. Starter drag? Another killer as it sucks that battery down. Bad or weak battery also presents a LOAD to the alternator and will run it harder and run it hotter. Stock in a stock car is just fine, period. Alternator killers are questionable batteries or engines that don't start easily or someone keeps cranking until the battery is low.
I agree fully with the quote above as a decent reason for changing. (oh, but can I plug in a fun statement? Let me work on the alternator and you make sure the wiring is decent and you'll have no worries either!) Anyway, credit where credit is due - you hit on the reason that does make sense - it's a shame because there's really no other reason to ditch the original. It's a FEAR FACTOR and availability thing. On the practical side, it's "where can i get parts" or "where can I buy a cheap replacement" (and the answer is most salvage yards!) There was but one reason I agree people make totally logical and financial choices for such a swap and you did well hitting it. Good one, thanks. I will again and still argue - more amperage is "bs" (respectfully, of course) unless you have MODIFIED things. That's because of this mindset out there, and lack of understanding. AMC used FORTY amp alternators on cars with AC until about 68. Hmmmmmm 40 amps. And guess what - it handled things. Motorola upped to 55 so AMC followed. But they also used 33 amp units as base on non-AC cars until about 1965 - aha, due to other customers, etc. Motorola dropped the 33 in favor of the 35 - AMC had to follow. With AC the clutch pulls about 4 amps, about 10 for headlights maybe 12 depending on bulbs and condition - then depending on numbers of bulbs, etc. another 2 to 4 amps for the rest of the lights and you have say 18 amps. Add ignition, etc. and you have under 30 amps with the AC on. And the AC cycles unless you run in desert only mode LOL. 4 amps AC 10 to 12 headlights 2 or so for other lights ignition system, radio, etc. and we have under 30 amps. That's a car WITH AC. A car without AC can EASILY use a sub-40 amp unit An AC car with no other mods can EASILY use a 55 amp unit. By the way, AMC Motorola alternators used two different pulley sizes depending on model, car, etc. Measured at the rim they were 2 7/8" or 2 5/8" diameter. I restore pretty much any make alternator so have decent Delco experience as well - especially since honestly we saw more problems with them over the years............ not sure why as i always thought they were ok. Thanks for the comments dkrtgood.... but more amperage isn't guaranteed because it's a 10 or 12si and honestly isn't even needed without some mods to the car. The stock systems do fine and even have PADDING so aren't operating at anywhere NEAR capacity. |
||
vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I could change out that battery but I really want to see how long it will go. Battery voltage has always been good in the past. So far over the winters I have let the car sit for up to three months at a time and it always cranked good, and fired up the car ready for the next season. I have begun to pack a pair of jumper cables though, waiting for the inevitable.
|
||
billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I can relate - my Ford pickup battery went over 12 years and the battery in my 70 Javelin was purchased in 2006 as I recall, so is well on the way to a dozen years. (but it just didn't seem to pack the same punch last week when I started it so perhaps it's time to load-test it) I think the battery I had in my Eagle went close to 10 years before I swapped it out a year or two ago. |
||
BBO Steve
AMC Fan Joined: Apr/18/2016 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 23 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
billd, so the CS i have won't even fit with out mods, so much for the seller saying they fit without mods. how much do you get for a rebuilt 55 amp motorola? The car is an AC car. I don't need the polished one.
|
||
billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
It seems I'm actually recovering from pneumonia - after second trip to urgent care this week and two more heavy-duty meds.............
Fully restored to show - as from factory, plated fan, pulley, new tag, etc. - full works $175
Same as above except hand-polished - likely $275 area (still trying to nail down the extra hours polishing like that takes) "Refurbished", not restored, but fully-functional with new wear parts, etc - pulley and fan powdercoated or painted and frames (case halves) may have imperfections - $100 (some say these are still decent for show) |
||
73hornut
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Southern Oregon Status: Offline Points: 3130 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Hi Billd. I currently am running a 140 amp 12si in my Gremlin, to handle the ac dual fans and other accessories. The issue is that it doesn't charge at idle. What would you recommend?
|
||
71 Javelin
74 Gremlin 79 Spirit AMX Rogue Valley Rumblers Like Us on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796 |
||
billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You know about electric fans and their appetite for power. They are nice but as you know, the power to drive them has to come from somewhere. The 12si is a decent choice for "more power" where you need real amps. Electric fans are good as they save HP (and fuel) when the cooling isn't needed and can force air when in heavy city traffic. I assume you have it wired correctly if it's a true GM 12si not converted by Summit or Jegs, etc. with a "one wire regulator". ** If so then it should get excitation current via the dash light (and/or a resistor) until it starts to charge at higher RPM. It wired correctly as a 3 wire, check connections - as a drop at a bad connection can cause it to not pt out enough voltage and discharge or not turn out the light until higher RPM. A loose belt can cause low or no charge at idle, as can a bad diode (usually the trio) What about pulley size? Too large and it will spin the alternator too slow at idle. ** reminder -there's no such thing as a ONE WIRE ALTERNATOR - it's how people choose to wire them, or the stock GM regulator has been replaced by a regulator that is intended to be wired without sensing and without light control (and it supplies its own excitation)
GM still made them for three wires. |
||
73hornut
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Southern Oregon Status: Offline Points: 3130 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
71 Javelin
74 Gremlin 79 Spirit AMX Rogue Valley Rumblers Like Us on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/1602825606650796 |
||
vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Just curious, how do you know it doesn't charge at idle and how much do you have to increase the revs to make it charge.
On my 10si's the light only came on when the engine ran really slow and probably an extra 25 RPM might have been enough to put it out. |
||
Post Reply | Page <1 23456> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |