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Oil pressure, oil filter, oil problems?

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kensamc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kensamc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oil pressure, oil filter, oil problems?
    Posted: Apr/11/2012 at 10:56am

 I have a 1986 Grand Wagoneer with a dead-stock 360, currently 150,000 on the ticker.

Last week, I was a quart low on oil ( leaks from the oil pump cover and maybe the timing cover)
and I topped off with a quart of Rislone.
 I had used Rislone before in my Montero Sport, and had it on hand.

 In a day or two, my oil pressure started literally bottoming out. Before this, I got nearly 60 on the gauge at start up, and 40 while driving, never much below 30 at a stop.
 But now it was up and down with every on and off the pedal, and laying down flat at stops, after 20-30 minutes of driving.
 Oil was dirty, even though still 1,000 miles til change was "due" .

 I changed the oil and it is better, but not where it was. Just over 40 at start up and 20-30 , by the gauge, while driving.
Holding just under  20 at stops.

 Changing the filter, made me realize that 86 and before get a tiny filter.... so small that the book at my local garage says 4.5 quarts capacity for 86 and 5 quarts for 88-91.

MY ISSUES:
 **How concerned should I be over oil pressure readings?
The gauge is probably not linear .... and Hemmings coincidentally just published a reader reply this month that you need 10 psi at idle and 10 more for every 1,000 rpm .  Is that close to right or acceptable?

** Is there an easy way to check if this is caused by worn cam or bearings?

**  Since I have to replace the oil pump cover gasket anyway, can I put on a pump cover / filter adapter from a later year and use the bigger oil filter ??

1986 Jeep Corp Grand Wagoneer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whizkidder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/11/2012 at 11:31am
My first thought was the rislone cleaned a lot of gunk out of the engine, and the sludge plugged the filter.

An oil and filter change should have improved it, but I think 10-20 psi drop compared to before indicates that something else is wrong. I'd change the oil and filter again, and cut the filter open to see what you have in there.

I think you can use any filter that will screw on the adapter and seal, but you should not use a non-bypass filter on a non-bypass adapter. Not sure what adapter you have on your '86.
Ron Frost
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kensamc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 10:03am
 Ron
 Adapter or cover .... searching for gaskets, it's referred to more often as oil pump cover ....

Should be the bone stock, with bypass.

I thought the same thing about the Rislone. I almost never use cleaners... just change the oil twice in a row when I get a "new" old car ... lesson learned, I think.

Found an old thread here thru google. A lot of the respondents there said they were running 20w50
and I don't think that's an option on a daily driver in Chicago. January might find 20-50 looking like a fudgsicle ....

 Yesterday, lowest pressure read as 20 ; today more like 10....

Bulltear is out of the pump covers without the bypass, if that's not putting the cart before the horse
1986 Jeep Corp Grand Wagoneer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 10:12am
If you're holding 10 psi at hot idle on a 150K motor you're okay, as long as pressure comes up with rpm. As others suggested, the Rislone probably cleaned it real good, but that could be a blessing in disguise. It's not likely that the oil pump was cleaned, more likely some of the smaller passages were starting to get blocked. Getting oil to all the moving parts at low pressure is better than no oil!

I don't think I would run 20w50 in the winter, but then on a 150K motor it's not going to hurt a lot. You might want to run 20w50 spring through early fall, change to 10w40 for winter. If you don't drive it much in winter due to salt on roads and keep it in a garage I wouldn't worry much about running 20w50 in winter. It won't thicken that much even if the garage isn't heated. Might make cranking a little slower, just let it warm up 2-3 minutes before loading the engine (driving). I lived in southern Idaho years ago, had the same problems on those teen (and lower!) mornings, and I had a little Chevette diesel! Keeping it in the garage out of the wind made a tremendous impact on cold morning starts. You get a bit colder and stay that way a bit longer than Idaho, but many days are close.


Edited by farna - Apr/12/2012 at 10:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FuzzFace2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 11:54am
You did not say what filter you are using? It would not be Orange would it? If so get a NAPA Gold and throw the Orange one away.
I have seen a PSI drop on my DD (02 Durango w/360) using the Orange filter used by the quick change place. Now I try and get the oil change by the dealer, it's free but is 30min away from home.
Dave ----
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whizkidder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by kensamc kensamc wrote:

 Ron
 Adapter or cover .... searching for gaskets, it's referred to more often as oil pump cover


Yeah -- the thing the oil filter screws onto -- bolted to the bottom of the front cover, covering the oil pump gears.

Oil pressure gets measured after the pickup/pump/oil filter/front cover. Any restriction in those, or increased "leakage" (bearing clearances, etc.) downstream from the pressure sender will register lower pressure.

Could be lots of things/combinations. Is the pickup screen now partialy plugged? Did the Rislone clean deposits out of the oil pump housing/gears that left it now pumping less volume? Is there gunk holding the oil pressure bypass plunger partially open? Gunk plugging the filter (even after oil/filter change)? Are the outlet passages from the oil filter/front cover into the block partially plugged? Did driving the vehicle for several days with Rislone-thinned oil clean deposits out of the oil galleys and other clearances? Did the thinner oil allow the crank/rod bearings to get hammered to larger clearances?

Is there gunk in the inlet to the pressure sender?

I'd pull the sender and make sure it's clean and working properly, then pull the pump cover and check the pressure relief plunger. Would also double check the gauge by temporarily plumbing in a mechanical one directly to the pressure port on the block.
Ron Frost
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carnuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 1:10pm
15W40 year round and NO orange filters!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kensamc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 4:46pm

 No orange filters ..... I swear. I read it on several forums, and I think Farna said here somewhere especially not for AMC....

 The filter that was on it was no name from the local quick lube place.
Currently an STP filter , because A-Zone only had Orange, KN, STP and AC I think.

 Gunk may be coming and going or something, but I worry that's wishfull thinking at this point, as it starts at 40 and drops when the engine reaches temp, which reads on other posts as the signs of cam or bearing wear.

 I am willing to pull the pump cover... the old thread even said you can change oil pump gears with the pump on the block, but I have never, and scared to mess it up .... SInce the gasket is leaking , I will
happily pull it off, but then don't know my next step.

15w 40 might be worth a shot, Carnuck .... what's the temp in January out there???

And is the high mileage oil Pennzoil sells worth a hoot?

1986 Jeep Corp Grand Wagoneer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeep360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 6:58pm
I would check the sending unit as well. The 88 GW I had went to 0 one time and when I put a mechanical guage it read normal, and then I rehooked up the factory unit and it has read fine ever since.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/13/2012 at 6:12am
I don't trust electric pressure gauges, period! The sending units get old and you don't know if it's right or not. The only good thing is I've never seen one read oil pressure when there isn't any. As they age they usually read low or fail altogether. They are better than an idiot light only, but not much more!
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