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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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Solenoid still clicking tells me the actuating fork is bent so that the slug is out of range. Grinding noise could also be that it is driving the gear out too far, however that should not be the case unless it is not built correctly. Any marks on the clutch face just behind the gear?
If I had no access to a shoulder bolt I would use a sleeve to make up the difference. I know someone who just bought an off the shelf re-manufactured Ford type starter for his 343 and paid less than $70 for it. Given a choice I'd pick a Delco over one of those though. I don't think you'd be able to find a rebuilt Prestolite starter that was quite common on the Canadian models back in the day. Unless mine got changed out in the first few years it is still original. Edited by vinny - Sep/30/2017 at 10:03am |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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A 343 uses the 4 1/2" Motorcraft style starter - totally different mounting, and specific up to mid-1970 model year. Be VERY careful using reman Motorcraft style starters on AMC!!!!!
The drives are DIFFERENT than those used in Fords and in some cases the drive end housing is different. There were at least 3 part numbers over the AMC years, some for the 6, some for the early 8s and some for the later 8s and if they mix and match parts like remanufacturers do you can have a starter that is never quite correct. They'll say "yes it fits" and yeah, it will fit, but so do shoes that are a size too large or too small but how WELL do they actually work......... Even starters that people swear are "original off my AMC" are often not and I end up having to unmix the part and use parts off my cores to make them correct. The last 3 starters I did that were off "virgin AMCs" were not and had wrong nose housings, wrong bushings, etc. (and I made them correct) Starters get replaced and people don't pay close enough attention. I've toured those reman places - it reminded me of roulette........... AMC had more than one service bulletin related to starter performance issues......... do the remanufacturers know about these? (yeah, right) |
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purple72Gremlin
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 16591 |
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About the only thing that's the same on the AMC motorcraft and Ford motorcraft is brushes..and maybe bushings...thats it...and I learned that when I worked in a starter rebuilder shop...in 1984.but you can't tell people that
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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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As far as I know the fellow is very happy with his starter. I guess you get lucky sometimes.
I don't really like those Ford type starters either. I can remember changing maybe five of them or parts of them on three vehicles in less than 200,000 combined miles. |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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That's why I hate it when I end up with cores that are not original from AMC cars - I end up with a shelf of scrap since they are so different in so many cases. the field switch, and more. I was in a rebuild shop (where they do one at a time) and when I talked to them about brushes they asked which I wanted, we chatted and he said something about the ground brushes, one having an end with a threaded hole and the other having a plain hole and I explained how they were done in the AMC version and he had a puzzled look. I know he's done AMC starters but he still seemed to not understand when I was explaining how the AMC brush sets pictured and explained replacing the brushes. There are differences and I am to the point I will not accept any more Motorcraft or Autolite starters unless they were the AMC version. Last batch ended up being mostly non-AMC Ford starters and I opened them hoping for a few parts and there's not much of anything I can actually use ( besides they were in such horrible poor shape inside anyway)
There's nothing wrong with the Ford/Motorcraft starter design..... it's in knowing the specifics, the adjustments they need, clearances, design changes, correct parts for the AMC vs. the Ford version and more. For example, did you know there's a spec for setting the movable pole shoe switch clearance on the starter? Or that there was a service replacement for the bushing on the armature to prevent the drive from being "stuck" back instead of kicking out like it should? It also helps to have the AMC service bulletins related to the AMC version of the starters. I've seen them go waaaaay over 100,000 miles untouched. An example is the starter from my Eagle 258 - 160,000 miles and it still worked perfectly and it was all original. Similar for the starter in my 73 - it's seen a terribly rough life, is near 100,000 miles and yet is still working strong. I've worked on a lot of them and although they do have their quirks, I find them no worse than any other and I'm not so sure they aren't among the more reliable. Again, the correct starter for the correct engine, correct year, and built using the correct parts and following the later service bulletins. Even for Fords, there's a lot of information out there about the correct parts and ways, and a lot of mis-information out there.
IMO they are a decent starter - and thinking about it - they used the same design for decades - well, there were a couple of "mods" (such as moving the connection, etc.) the basic design and principal remained unchanged for decades. |
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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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I remember the Spragg clutches slipping and you could always tell on the Fords when people would try over and over again until it finally caught enough to give them a start. That could be problems with jobber spare parts though.
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Most folks didn't know to ask for NEW and not reman starter drives and all remanufactured starters use remanufactured drives. I only use NEW, never reman, starter drives. It's extremely rare to have an issue with the new drives - but not uncommon for the reman drives which is what most carry due to the large price difference in most cases.
There were different drives, different nose housings and so on - even different hole sizes. It's a big deal to get the RIGHT drive, correct starter, etc for the correct engine. It's a big deal in the ford world and there's sites that show the differences. Further, once again, the movable pole shoe must fit smoothly, and the switch must be adjusted correctly and the contacts decent. When in good shape they snap and engage really hard and quick. I have a video of a starter I restored how quickly and solidly it engages (I run them on a test stand, a simple device but I can run them before they are fully assembled to watch things inside......) |
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purple72Gremlin
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 16591 |
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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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Apparently when Henry had the starter that he designed built it didn't work.The foreman told him he put his best machinist on it. Henry told him to let the worst one do it and the starter worked fine. That would be the one with the Bendix spring as found on Model A's and somewhat later. I don't remember having problems with those either, although they were only six volt.
On this edit I do remember hearing that the Bendix spring was prone to breakage but never saw it myself. Some people converted their cars to 12 volt and left the starter alone so that was probably hard on them. Edited by vinny - Oct/05/2017 at 10:44am |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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I've converted a lot of cars and even MORE tractors over to 12v from 6 and it does spin the starter in harder - but if you think of that spring sticking out there, it was flat, exposed, and had a lot of torque applied differently than how we think of conventional springs. They weren't as bad as all that but they did break now and then. I typically saw more brush wear, commutator damage and so on than I did broken springs.
The real issue with converting to a 12v system was that if the engine started poorly, people would still CRANK and CRANK and burn starters out. Back in the late 60s and into the 70s (maybe today, I haven't looked!!!!) you could get EIGHT (8) volt batteries! That allowed use of your stock lights, stock charging system - as long as you re-adjusted the voltage regulator. We did it on Dad's 1952 Ford and it worked great for years. We did only two things - swapped batteries and adjusted the regulator, the rest stayed stock. It cranked a lot better but didn't burn out the starter (because the car sat a lot it didn't always start instantly) The problem with the Ford direct drive 4.5" is the lack of understanding, the lack of adjustments done by shops and remanufacturers.......... and more. My experience has been the opposite of most who posted here - and of course I am talking about hundreds of starters and not a few dozen (and I'd include the many I've restored in the last few years) There are so many reasons for the problems and I won't get into that here (push-back and there's no real reason anyway) but I've found them to last as long and be as reliable but not as easy to work on. There were changes over the years although some, if not most, don't have any real impact on fitment and so on, some DO, and if you ignore that you are asking for trouble. In 77, Ford released what's often referred to as the "modified" or "mod" starter - still 4.5" for the AMC folks, but they moved the field battery connection out to a strip out the end instead of a post on the side. This allowed for more field windings internally and more torque. I follow "by the book" so to speak on the starters I do - I ensure the armature has the bronze spacer and not the steel spacer, I make sure it's got the right "nose" or drive end housing (but if someone sends me a core that is WRONG and I don't have that part on hand...... well......) and I make sure the pull-in winding switch is clean, makes great electrical contact and is ADJUSTED properly for gap. Yeah, there's a spec for that but who, honestly, who, including SHOPS, pay attention to that and if they take the thing apart do they make SURE the aluminum guide is set properly to allow the movable pole shoe to sit HARD, square and solid against the starter frame? I'll bet you dinner most don't -- and how do I know? Because I see that aluminum distorted, smashed, etc., and the shoe unable to contact the starter frame, that's how I know. Seriously, these days I'm not sure how many SHOPS I'd trust to do these starters right. My shelves are full of badly done starters, mixed up parts, lack of adjustment, and that aluminum guide a mess. If that movable pole shoe can't smack the starter frame and stay against it hard and square, you'll have troubles (it may vibrate, not pull the drive out very well, may burn the contacts in the starter, burn brushes and commutator, run hotter, etc.) I made a simple test rig so I can observe the starter operation fully and I make sure that sleeve is set properly and clears the movable pole shoe as it should. There are RECESSES in that pole shoe to clear that guide and there's no room at all for error - you can't fudge it, period. Further, I do a tin/zinc plate on the movable pole shoe to help prevent it corroding and hanging up, sticking, etc. It's a bit more "slippery" when I'm done and moves more freely. Here the starter is active, the movable pole shoe is smacked against the starter frame, it clears the aluminum sleeve, the contacts are gapped properly and she engages hard and fast with minimal arcing at the brushes. |
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