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Money is no object, 3.75L I6 |
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Spin Doctor
AMC Fan
Joined: Apr/05/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Topic: Money is no object, 3.75L I6Posted: Apr/05/2012 at 10:52pm |
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In terms of engine geometry the 199, 232, 258, 4.0 family of engines has certain things in common with the Small Block Chevy in terms of bore spacing and such. And no a AMC I6 is not a SBC. But let's play around with a couple of ideas. First if the bore of the 4.0 can be punched out to 4.000" without getting the wall thickness on the cylinders too thin along with a 199 crankshaft we get the same bore and stroke combination of the 302 (the best of the '60's SBC's IMO) for a displacement of 226 CI. Now if we have a decent Crossflow Head (remember MONEY IS NO OBJECT) just what kind of power and torque curves would be possible along with just how fast could you spin such an animal. And how would they compare to the HO head from the 4.0. Now developing a crossflow head wouldn't be cheap but some of the technology today makes some things easier. Stereo Lithology would eliminate the need to make patterns for casting the head. In fact the old style stereolith machines that used glued paper layers would allow one to make mock-ups that could be used for checking flow rates, clearances etc. Going the OHC route has some problems. First is the cam drive. Belts would be eaiest. Second the oiling system. The Oil Galley hole drilled from front to back would need to be blocked where it intensects the lifter bores. Then you need lube to the head. Plus the Cam Bores need to be left intact as you would probably need to use the cam to drive the oil pump. Where I'm going with this is the possibity to turn a '65 American into a real screamer without having to resort to stuffing a V-8 in. Think something along the lines of an American BMW Now I worked the KEP's Tool Room from '73 to '05 and we heard rumors about a 4 valve head in the 1999, 2000 time frame IIRC. It could of been earlier. Roller Lifter blocks were machined in the TR around 1990. Plus I have been told that there were OHC versions run in experimental in the '60s.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7106 |
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Posted: Apr/06/2012 at 4:30pm |
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The head is the biggest issue, if you want a crossflow head. If you're redesigning the head, go with an OHC design -- no point not to. Before reinventing the wheel, check other six cylinder heads though. Find one with the came bore centers and there's a good possibility it can be modified to bolt to the AMC block. Me, I think the last couple 4.0L heads are really good, good enough that the effort and expense for a new head is questionable. Ron Waters said he turned a 258 to 6000-6500 rpm all the time, and that was without the benefit of even a 4.0L head (all of which are substantially better than the 258 and older heads).
There is a roller cam available, but durability is questionable. The cam is ground from a standard cam blank and then surface hardened. No one knows how long it will take to wear through the hardening -- I think the company suggests somewhere around 25K miles? If you're spending money get a hard billet roller cam and work with the 96 or so head. SOME 4.0L blocks can be bored out to 4". Beware of core shift -- have it sonic checked first! Sometime around 92-93 Chrysler took a bit of metal out of the block, so get an early one. I'd go ahead and look for a 87-90 Renix EFI block just to be sure. Edited by farna - Apr/06/2012 at 4:32pm |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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amc67rogue
AMC Nut
Joined: Nov/05/2008 Location: Phx. AZ. Status: Offline Points: 408 |
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Posted: Apr/06/2012 at 4:40pm |
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The 199, 232, 258, 4.0 family have a bore spacing of 4.380 same as the sb ford. Sb chevy is 4.440 .
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Keith Coggins 67Rogue X code
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Slate
AMC Apprentice
Joined: Feb/28/2012 Location: central asia Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Posted: Apr/06/2012 at 4:40pm |
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The best start for an AMC design without further discussion on my part is the Hesco head. T S
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7106 |
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Posted: Apr/06/2012 at 4:44pm |
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The Hesco/Patriot aluminum head is just a copy of the iron head. Supposedly has a bit more "meat" for enlarging ports, but you don't really need to enlarge the ports on the 4.0L head. I'm not even sure if it's still available.
Hmmm... is the 4.6L Modular Ford the same bore spacings as the old SBF? Cut and weld a couple heads and make a new cam... It seems that I recall someone cutting and welding a V-8 head of some kind to fit a six, but I don't recall any details. Might have been SBF heads on an AMC six... Edited by farna - Apr/06/2012 at 4:46pm |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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Thikstik
AMC Addicted
Joined: Mar/20/2008 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 1078 |
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Posted: Apr/07/2012 at 12:58am |
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About 5 months ago, I asked Benny at Hesco about the alum head and he said the present stock was sold out. i will call him soon and see whats up. I didnt get told that they were going obsolete, but??
We just need a Whipple charger...well, no, Thats old tech now!
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75 gremlin x, jeep 4L headed 258,Clifford cam, intake,header. 390 holley. I want a 282 VAM motor!
AC/PS/PDB. 72 AMX , 304 2bbl, 3speed, now disks...probably will sell, want an automatic /AC. |
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Spin Doctor
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Joined: Apr/05/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: Apr/09/2012 at 5:57am |
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Let's face it this is more of a "what if" than anything else. Does any one have a set of drawings for the 4.0 block and or head. I actually had a set when I worked at Kenosha Engine as we would have to build special fixtures from time to time but I left them behind.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7106 |
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Posted: Apr/09/2012 at 9:12am |
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Then redesign the head to be OHC and cross flow. Reduce the deck height for a shorter stroke if you want a BMW type engine, leave it for more of a truck motor. Hmm... just leave the deck height alone and have three different strokes -- 258 crank for a long stroke 4.5L (stock 4.0L bore), stock 4.0L crank for a general purpose engine (got to admit, the 4.0L has been good for that!), and a short stroke 3.5L (or thereabouts) screamer for some high rpm racing action to compete with the BMWs and such. I'd keep the torque and GP versions SOHC, maybe with variable cam timing (like the GM I-6), but the screamer needs a special DOHC head. Four valves would be nice on the DOHC, two really should be fine for the other two.
For a bit of guidance look a the old Pontiac SOHC six (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Straight-6_engine#Overhead_Valve). It was based on the Chevy six, but did have its own block casting. Just the internal dimensions were the same so it could use the same crank and rods (as far as I can determine). Both manifolds were on the same side so the valve could be canted to one side and make a nice wedge combustion chamber. Might be better in some ways than cross-flow with just two valves. The Jeep/IKA SOHC six might provide some inspiration as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Tornado_engine). Note the unusual cam design -- one lobe for the exhaust and intake valves for each cylinder (only six lobes!). I don't think you'd want to copy that feature, as it had to severely restrict cam profile. The engine was (and still is!) used successfully in racing, so the cam design can't be that bad, but... |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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tyrodtom
AMC Addicted
Joined: Sep/14/2007 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2824 |
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Posted: Apr/09/2012 at 10:11am |
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I think IKA later redesigned the head, moved the valves a little and changed the cam to 12 lobes.
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66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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Slate
AMC Apprentice
Joined: Feb/28/2012 Location: central asia Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Posted: Apr/09/2012 at 3:28pm |
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Bore centers are what you need to look at if crossflow is do or die. The 230 Gladiator/IKA had a tiny bore with bore centers that were likely around 4.0- 4.10". Pontiac Sprint SOHC is 4.40", AMC 4.38".
T S
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