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Mega HVAC and Cooling |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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Yep, R12 runs pretty darn cold over R134a. Our 2009 Honda Accord coupe barely can keep things good in Midwest humid heat while in tail backs lasting an hour or more. I use to play out in the July summer 112 degree heat in the sun without baking my noodle. But here in the Midwest I can barely tolerate 90 degrees in the sun. Plus I plan on a hot build 390 engine. So everything is texts big with my build. I think the peeps who know my ongoing build prolly would not question me, but would like some reasoning as to why. Outside of the differences I stated above, others to add are long term use with dependability with ase of obtaining replacement parts. Though all my faffing about with my threads is to give some insight to how one can tackle adding or changing their old system that has failed or upgrading to R134a. Hoses and expansion valve upgrade is one thing, but he stock condenser may not allow for maximum cooling efficency if left alone. A auxiliary fan will help and some sort of control to help with modern traffic during summer time, |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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FSJunkie
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2011 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4741 |
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It had and has R134a. I've never driven this car with R12. I used to live in the Midwest. In fact, I bought this car in Kansas. My avatar is a picture of it sitting in front of my garage in Kansas about a year after I bought it. The A/C was barely adequate there, but only because I had not tinted the windows yet and the A/C was barely adequate anywhere before I had the tint done. I'm sure it would work great now. The idiot that ordered my Hornet ordered it with A/C but not with tinted windows. It had plain perfectly clear glass on all windows. What an idiot. The sun shining in ruined the effectiveness of the A/C. I have since installed a Solex Sunshade windshield and 35% tinted the side and back windows. It feels like a dark cave inside now. A dark and cold cave. I love it. That tint made a world of difference in the effectiveness of the A/C. It cools as well on a sunny day as it does at night now when before there was a distinct difference in how well it cooled in the day verses at night. I also heavily insulated the roof and headliner. That helped some. The insane thing is AMC offered an "A/C package" that included A/C, power steering, and tinted windows. It has A/C and power steering, but not tinted windows. That means the moron ordered A/C and power steering separately....and saved all of $5. Again, what a moron.
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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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Yep, tinted windows help and a sun shade when parked out in the open. Did the tinted windows on our Solara, and it helps a lot since its always outside. One thing I sort of side stepped on my thread that I may need to address. Since my upgrade hardly touches on the factory setup... I noted that the lines / hoses should be #8 along the high side, which AMC did with 71 on up cars, and possibly previous years as well. The only down side with AMC system is he fact that many are forced into R134a upgrades without knowing there are differences to make R134a work at its best. One is that the AMC condenser sits far away from the radiator air pull compared to newer systems. The gap allows pressure to build and cause the stock expansion valve to be over loaded to the needs of the system. Having pointed out to a member via pm, about the expansion valve, many neglect to have done by either time contestants or lack of knowledge. You can add a barrier to seal around the open areas between the radiator and condenser of the stock system and allow better air flow for a/c cooling stability. Some have noted issues with a R134a when stand still traffic happens time to time under high heat conditions. The main points I brought up about universal kits not being adequate for my own use, or any proper setup, were true to AMC and newer better designed or should I say heavy duty cooling used on big cars. Seems that small cars fudge the pressure with smaller compressors on small engines, which does not do well for the big SD508 compressor or stock York. Actually the system I designed based on various makes components is not that far off from AMC. The height of the condenser is about the same size, just a wee longer by 3 inches or so. The big difference is that of all the various options one can select, only a few outside of stock have stock tube design as for diameter, fittings and location of ports. So in essence my setup will point a more proper option than a blind kit for cars that don't have much options for the factory replacements. Vintage Air seems to be the best pick for hard to fit or obtain systems for non A/C or badly in need replacements. Even though i am doing a major job at changing to more modern components, the over all costs in the long run is cost effective. I am not going to state how much my over haul costs but it's not as cheap as a budget kit, nor as expensive as finding proper new replacement parts. The main thing if any that is a point to consider with my design is the addition of electric fan controls, and A/C pressure control for stability and logevity. Everything else is just insight to what to expect for their preplacements or additions when the time comes. About ordering A/C separately. Both my Javelins had non tinted windows with A/C. Only the 73 came with tinted wind screen and power assist disc brakes. The 71 was manual steering and non assist drum brakes. Both cars were sent out to the dealer by factory selected options. I figure the factory did not make an effort in providing tinted windows at the factory selected options, as the bean counters did not see a need to make a sale. Only he first few fully optioned show room floor models had everything appointed for sales. The rest to fill the lots had a mix to full everyone's needs. I just didn't relies how mixed and oddly factory optioned cars were until i got deep into my 71 build. Now i kind of wished I left it alone, just because not many are survivors with backward options on higher level tried cars. My 71 SST was lucky to have A/C and console automatic, when it very well could have been a column shift, non A/C car as a very base model SST. |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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I aquired a programable alarm delay circuit. As a nicer option to control how long the high speed fan operates. You can program it to delay up to a full hour if needed.
Though it has no reset option, to retrigger when needed. It's design expects a power disconnect to control reset. Basically it acts as an in line delay controller. With either delay turn on or delay turn off. I will redesign my mega circuit to work with the alarm delay controller as it seems to be a better option for my intentions. Plus it is fairly economical because so many discount vendors sell them. My plan is to set it to run for a maximum of 15 minutes when the temp reaches 195° F and greater. Because my circuit relies on the temp switches to control fan turn on. The delay only is in effect when engine is not being cooled or over heat condition. Plus it is a protection in case of a faulty switch. If the high speed fans should kick in, they will be on until the normal temperature switch becomes deactivated. So if engine temps become great enough, the action of the fans in operation will be, off, slow / medium, fast, and then to off. Even if you turn off the car when high speed fans are operational, the timer may not reach the full 15 minutes if the engine cools down enough for the normal operation temp switch deactivates. So if by chance the timer is set to 1 hour, I doubt you will ever see it reach no more than 20 minutes of delay before turn off. The delay is user adjusted for their needs. I assume 15 minutes is more than enough to set the delay time, as the temp switches functioning normally will turn off and reset the delay circuit. Hope to update my circuit soon and post the delay module for reference. |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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Added a new circuit, kept old one for peeps who may prefer it. Added info on the alarm delay controler. Added my choice of A/C condenser that I will be using.
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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After thinking about it... Some may want more info about the alarm delay module I chose.
Being simple in operation, it has many options that can make it useful in need of delaying a circuit. By default it is setup to delay a disconnection, though it can be set to delay a connection to a circuit, both in DC and AC switching. Also it can be used either as a voltage sourced switch or a ground sourced switch. Which is part of my circuit, in using it as a ground source, in its operation. It will keep the high speed fans from staying on in a faulty condition. Call it current drain protection, if you will. Here is how the safety feature works. If by chance the high temp switch fails and sticks the internal contacts to ground, the delay circuit will operate and switch off the connection for the high speed fan operation. Since the circuit has no provisions for automated reset or means to trigger, while the high temp switch contact is stuck, the delay module will stay active in its final state once the delay time is reached (high speed fan circuit disabled). The current draw on the module is very small when active and relay disengaged, since delay time has been exceeded. If the module should go bad, and keep its relay activated indefinitely when powered on, the module should become deactivated once the high temp switch resets when temps become stable. The odds of both module and high temp switch becoming faulty together is almost impossible. Now the big question... Some of you may think, since this module has no provisions to trigger and reset the delay, then how does it know when to trigger? Ha! It is one of them dummy circuits. Once powered on it starts the delay. But, because it has a relay and requires the relay to engage to connect a circuit, you can fool it into becoming a smart switch. By keeping ground for the module to operate disconnected from ground. We can leave the module permanently connected to power, waiting for a connection to ground. Though the connection must be temporary, as there is no means to reset it automatically. So by connecting a switched ground to the normally open connection to the relay, and connecting the input to the relay to a ground source that is also switched (high temp switch), we have the ability to connect ground via a ground loop latch. Once triggered by a touch of ground from the high temp switch, the circuit completes itself until the normal temp switch releases contact with ground. The whole thing can be rewired to use power instead of ground to control its operation, but in this circuit, ground is being switched at the temp switches, and makes the whole circuit simpler. Edited by 304-dude - Nov/11/2018 at 9:13am |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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Updated page 3, by adding OEM replacement hoses / lines that will be used in connecting block fitting condensers to Sanden pumps.
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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FSJunkie
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2011 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4741 |
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The biggest problem with the AMC cooling system is at low speed. It cannot gen enough air flow through the condenser or RPM on the compressor to work effectively. Which is why I don't use A/C unless I'll be sustaining speeds over 40 MPH for a reasonable amount of time. I do not like driving in town or idling with A/C. It heats up the air under the hood too much and is too much load and stress on the engine unless you are actually moving.
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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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That Is why I call my thread Mega HVAC and Cooling. I expect things will be good and cool no matter what speeds with my modified v8. I think you may do better with cooling using a pusher electric fan in front of the condenser, with a switch for use with A/C or manually controlling it when needed. |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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304-dude
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/29/2008 Location: Central Illinoi Status: Offline Points: 9081 |
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Got my Aluminum water pump in, and compared my serpentine forward flow NASCAR Chevy water pump pully for fit. Seems that Chevy NASCAR water pumps are 1/2" taller than late AMC pumps. Which also makes them taller than stock 80s Chevy v8 pumps.
Will correct with a 1/2" spacer, instead of pulling the water pump hub 1/2" further up the shaft. It makes for a simple long term fix without need of extra work to fit on any late AMC water pump. Will be adding more details on my using a Ford C-III power steering pump, which is how I am utilising a custom Ford serpentine setup, with slight mods to fit, which the details are more suited for. Corrected my Eagle 70 Polars radiator to AMC Gen2-3 V8 hose connections, by using a 90 Grand Wagoneer top hose, and a 70 Polars 440 v8 lower hose. Will add further as I progress to assembling components. NOTE: the A/C pressure line is a near perfect fit, the Forester condenser needs some mounting hardware removed and adjusted. Half of the mounting is fastened on, the other half seems to be welded, but is not an issue as custom brackets will be used to fit about 1/2" to 3/4" away from the radiator. At least that is the plan. |
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71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons 78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low 50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension 79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker |
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