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Manual Transmission Oil
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Lyle View Drop Down
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Points: 772 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/09/2017 at 9:57pm
Here is a link to a chart but the page does not give all the information on oil formulations and reasons for the engineering behind them:
https://www.sinopeclubricants.com/Articles.asp?ID=252
A magnet is a good thing, crankcase or gearbox.
I should add that some engine oil detergents collect moisture to reduce acid build up from combustion gas blow by. In engine oil this is good as it is changed frequently.
A gearbox does not see these gasses and the detergents can accumulate with the moisture below the oil. Unless the gearbox gets above the temperature for moisture separation it will remain mixed with the detergent. This is not a good lubricant and can corrode gearbox components.  
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Points: 7544 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/10/2017 at 10:30pm
i think we are all over-analyzing this, but though i fear adding to it, a transmission is nothing like and engine. the oil doesnt get stressed much at all, there's no combustion byproducts to condense, etc. i've never measured it (the only way to really know) but in my experience i've never felt a truly hot manual transmission. hot would be > 250F, and modest motor oils are good for far more than that.

all that said, after messing with motor oils i ended up with plain old 85w90 or whatever it was. did not have the bronze-eating crud, i forget the brand.

prolly changing trans fluid every decade, even with the wrong oil, would be overkill. even the bronze-eating phosphorous takes a long time to act. 

the last two transmissions i built i stuck a piece of super-magnet just below the trough that collects oil thrown off the rotating gears, so oil flows past it, to catch any steel dust or whatever. only had one of them apart after, it had some inky black but it was completely un-feelable. another piece in the hole in th end of the drain plug. on both nothing on it other than the india ink like black.
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com
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Bandana View Drop Down
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Points: 473 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/20/2017 at 3:18pm
Just drained the oil from my 1970 T10 to change it.  It was about an inch or better below the fill hole. Had a magnetic bottom plug that had a good bit of fine particles on it but I have no idea how long the plug or fluid was in the transmission. I found this thread looking for oil specs as my TM doesn't seem to list oil specs for the manual transmissions or capacities. Reading through the thread I'm a bit confused on what to use?? 75w-85, 85w-90 - GL3 or 4? Sounds like motor oil is not best as one would expect. Could anyone summarize the recommended oil, what is the capacity empty and I assume AMC wants the fluid up to the fill hole?
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Back when Ramblers were nearly new, we just topped off the transmissions and differentials with regular old 90 weight gear oil or whatever it was and never changed the oil for the life of the car.
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Points: 473 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 9:19am
Yea, I know. Years ago I never gave much thought to all of the various technicalities of oil composition, viscosity, additives etc., either. Of course there wasn't much variation to choose from back then either - and the cars and their components also didn't last as long. Lubrication science has come a long ways since the 60s and if there is an edge to a particular lube I'd just as soon benefit from it.

I did find the capacity of the T-10 to be 1.5 qts. Does this sound about right?
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billd View Drop Down
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Points: 30894 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/21/2017 at 9:44am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

i think we are all over-analyzing this, but though i fear adding to it, a transmission is nothing like and engine. the oil doesnt get stressed much at all, there's no combustion byproducts to condense, etc. i've never measured it (the only way to really know) but in my experience i've never felt a truly hot manual transmission. hot would be > 250F, and modest motor oils are good for far more than that.

all that said, after messing with motor oils i ended up with plain old 85w90 or whatever it was. did not have the bronze-eating crud, i forget the brand.

prolly changing trans fluid every decade, even with the wrong oil, would be overkill. even the bronze-eating phosphorous takes a long time to act. 

the last two transmissions i built i stuck a piece of super-magnet just below the trough that collects oil thrown off the rotating gears, so oil flows past it, to catch any steel dust or whatever. only had one of them apart after, it had some inky black but it was completely un-feelable. another piece in the hole in th end of the drain plug. on both nothing on it other than the india ink like black.



Yup - you are correct unless talking differentials and then the hypoid gears demand extreme pressure lubes
and Do be sure to use a product that doesn't eat at the yellow metals (it's not the cast gears as previously stated - it's the yellow metal to beware of)
Temperatures are far lower, you don't have the cam-to-lifter pressures, and you don't have combustion by-products and don't need to suspend the contaminants so they get filtered.

I did a deep search and study a few years back when working with the T5 transmissions - and the best lube I have found is synchromesh lube - I still have a bottle or two. It meets the final AMC specs - which MOPAR actually carried forward and used for years.
I spoke with shops that specialized in performance transmissions and T5s and so on and got their takes plus read tech docs, dug into the specs that AMC settled on in the 1980s as well. I spent countless hours, actually it turned into days worth of digging.

After switching to fluid that met the final AMC specs and matched their own "fish oil" lube, my own T5 started shifting like a dream, is quiet, and works great in cold as well as hot weather.
I'll never again use engine oils after looking up the specs and digging through my old college papers.
Even AMC stopped recommending engine oil and ATF in later years -the TSMs changed frequently until they came up with their own spec and lube.
Again, it's the yellow metal of the synchronizers, not the cast gears, to worry about. 
I posted multiple posts on this very topic a few years back and included part numbers, brands, etc. but it keeps getting "rehashed" as if new. 

(one must also be careful about what one goes by online since anyone can post their own opinions of what's right and create a page that gets copied repeated and becomes a de facto standard because it gets plagiarized and copied enough times. Some battery pages are great examples of that - the same bad information get copied and even ends up on business sites!)


http://theamcpages.com

http://antique-engines.com
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purple72Gremlin View Drop Down
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Points: 16611 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/23/2017 at 11:19am
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:


Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

i think we are all over-analyzing this, but though i fear adding to it, a transmission is nothing like and engine. the oil doesnt get stressed much at all, there's no combustion byproducts to condense, etc. i've never measured it (the only way to really know) but in my experience i've never felt a truly hot manual transmission. hot would be > 250F, and modest motor oils are good for far more than that.

all that said, after messing with motor oils i ended up with plain old 85w90 or whatever it was. did not have the bronze-eating crud, i forget the brand.

prolly changing trans fluid every decade, even with the wrong oil, would be overkill. even the bronze-eating phosphorous takes a long time to act. 

the last two transmissions i built i stuck a piece of super-magnet just below the trough that collects oil thrown off the rotating gears, so oil flows past it, to catch any steel dust or whatever. only had one of them apart after, it had some inky black but it was completely un-feelable. another piece in the hole in th end of the drain plug. on both nothing on it other than the india ink like black.




Yup - you are correct unless talking differentials and then the hypoid gears demand extreme pressure lubes
and Do be sure to use a product that doesn't eat at the yellow metals (it's not the cast gears as previously stated - it's the yellow metal to beware of)
Temperatures are far lower, you don't have the cam-to-lifter pressures, and you don't have combustion by-products and don't need to suspend the contaminants so they get filtered.

I did a deep search and study a few years back when working with the T5 transmissions - and the best lube I have found is synchromesh lube - I still have a bottle or two. It meets the final AMC specs - which MOPAR actually carried forward and used for years.
I spoke with shops that specialized in performance transmissions and T5s and so on and got their takes plus read tech docs, dug into the specs that AMC settled on in the 1980s as well. I spent countless hours, actually it turned into days worth of digging.

After switching to fluid that met the final AMC specs and matched their own "fish oil" lube, my own T5 started shifting like a dream, is quiet, and works great in cold as well as hot weather.
I'll never again use engine oils after looking up the specs and digging through my old college papers.
Even AMC stopped recommending engine oil and ATF in later years -the TSMs changed frequently until they came up with their own spec and lube.
Again, it's the yellow metal of the synchronizers, not the cast gears, to worry about. 
I posted multiple posts on this very topic a few years back and included part numbers, brands, etc. but it keeps getting "rehashed" as if new. 

(one must also be careful about what one goes by online since anyone can post their own opinions of what's right and create a page that gets copied repeated and becomes a de facto standard because it gets plagiarized and copied enough times. Some battery pages are great examples of that - the same bad information get copied and even ends up on business sites!)
And I know for a fact that Mopar was using ATF in their 3 speeds as far back 1964. And my ex FIL had a 1979 Dodge pick up with a 3 speed and it had ATF. the transmissions would grind, and not shift very well...90wt fixed both of them. The 1964 car was still under warranty, my dad was the owner and he was very unhappy about this.
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