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M12

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Heavy 488 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 8:43am
Originally posted by ADAM12MATADOR ADAM12MATADOR wrote:

Back in the early 1980's i bought a modified valve body for my M11 from JW Transmissions in Florida.  I did i quick search and they are still in business. Contact them, maybe they can help.

After 40 years I suspect that the guys that knew the BW trans are below the sod or don't know their own names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 10:22am
That's hurtful.
We can get new knees and hips easier then we can buy parts for the BW M12/M11.
But we are still above the ground:)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 10:41am
Hurtful but a fact. I'm not far from 70. Sometimes people forget that the guys that spent the time to develop and build stuff for our relics were in their 30's,40's and 50's  50 years ago!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/13/2020 at 9:16pm
dammit i thought we were all supposed to be getting younger. what's progress for then, anyhoo?

parts are easier to find now than in 1990, or 2005. knowledge, however, is subtle and hard to write down.

amcenthusiast, it's hard to find a flaw in your logic. 

*2 on the cleaning of parts and clean workspace. 

"No engine ever died from being too clean." 
-- Smokey Yunick.

1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T96
sr-ix.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/14/2020 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Heavy 488 Heavy 488 wrote:

Hurtful but a fact. I'm not far from 70. Sometimes people forget that the guys that spent the time to develop and build stuff for our relics were in their 30's,40's and 50's  50 years ago!
Amen. And I had the BW in a car years ago. (It was not American made.  )and I hated the BW

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/15/2020 at 9:06pm
Oh hey -just had to come back to this thread and apologize because I found many Ford Cruise-O and FMX rebuild videos on YouTube -same basic trans/lots of videos -sorry to be such know-it-all
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/15/2020 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:

Oh hey -just had to come back to this thread and apologize because I found many Ford Cruise-O and FMX rebuild videos on YouTube -same basic trans/lots of videos -sorry to be such know-it-all
Pretty much if you want high performance  from the transmission  the m11-m12 and all the Ford transmissions  that are FMX and its ancestors.  Will not cut it for high performance. And no one makes high performance  shift kits and all.   But they do for the Chrysler transmissions,  and the TH400.    That oughr totell you sonething dont you think?l
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/15/2020 at 9:38pm
It's all popularity. Other manufacturers sold about as many of one model as AMC sold total for the model year. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rsrguy3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2020 at 10:18am
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:

[QUOTE=rsrguy3]So.... The resolution is to get the 71 Z-code on the road this year! I have a 727 from a 73amx and the original m12. Both need to be rebuilt, the 727 needs to have the crank machined. I think the TF weighs less but what else should I consider? 
1. Which is tougher
2. Is there a way for me to find the parts and rebuild it myself? Any vids? 
3. Are there any substantial reasons to go with the TF over the m12? 
4. Should I use the billet steel flywheel/flexplate and bell spacer I have or try to find an originalflex plate. 
[/QUOTE

Perhaps I've got it backwards but I thought we just discussed this on the other BW12 modifications thread.

Ok so never mind that... Comparing 727 to M12:

1) Which is tougher?

Now, the 727 is 'tougher' than the M12. Why? Because the 727 uses larger diameter size for the clutches. This feature gives the clutches more leverage against the rotating assembly. It's like putting a longer handle on a hammer.

I'm saying 'now' for a reason though, because back then, around '71, the 727 was only recently cured from a durability problem; prior to '70, the 727 had an input shaft endplay issue where the same question 'which is tougher' could be answered the other way, saying the M12 is tougher because it had no input shaft issue... which is important, I think, to defend the reputation of the AMC car.

2) Is there a way for me to find the parts and rebuild it myself? Any vids?

Just because one can find parts (for either transmission) does not mean they can rebuild it, by their self.

This is because the automatic transmission is not a simple mechanical thing; it's not like making pizza.

The AM iron case automatic is easier to rebuild DIY, primarily because it has a separable bell housing which makes it much 'nicer' to handle on a workbench. Because the 727 has an integral bell housing, it's bulky and awkward to move around on a workbench. Other than that, they are both a 'two clutch, two band' type automatic transmission -both similar in their basic construction, and neither unit is 'easy' to assemble ...where the word 'easy' is subjective, in relation to the person's own mechanical ability.

Yes, there are 'parts galore' for both units, and the cost for parts is about the same -not much difference there between the two.

I take my time when I rebuild an automatic transmission. I devote a full week to it. Most of the time is absorbed into cleaning parts and maintaining a clean workspace. To make a video would be even more tedious and boring IMO. Make a video? I don't think it would be entertaining.

Can you do it yourself? If you consider yourself as having natural mechanical ability yes, the best way to acquire the skills is to get 'hands on experience'. Of course, DIY with no transmission rebuild manual would only be another handicap; lacking guidance, alongside lacking experience.

3) Are there any substantial reasons to go with the TF over the m12?

The most 'substantial' reason to rebuild the original unit for your car is to keep it all original, because a '71 Javelin with 401 is among the greatest muscle car combinations ever made. And, this is amplified because Javelin won Trans Am in 1971.

This makes it a 'true collector car', and plausibly ignorant to 'molest', by arbitrarily treating the car like a meaningless smorgasbord of parts. It's not a meaningless pile of parts; it is a true collector car that is worth more in original condition -where unmolested specimens are highly sought after.

To turn this question inside out, the AM iron case Shift Command unit features lower parasitic loss, and will send about 12 more hp to the drive wheels than if the car came with a 727. -So, even though the 727 evolved and became more durable, the M12 still offers a small power making advantage. -Not substantial, but very real and 'actual'.

4) Should I use the billet steel flywheel/flexplate and bell spacer I have or try to find an original flex plate?

On any true collector car like '71 401 Javelin, authenticity is key to higher appraised/market value.

Therefore the stock type flywheel, stock bellhousing etc. is the smarter choice.

All '66-'91 AMV8s are externally balanced.

To do the car 'right', the engine should be re-balanced with an original type flexplate.

Having the engine 'built right' is a 'substantial' reason that will affect the car's market value.

The main problem here in all these questions is related to awareness of the car's actual rarity and collectability.

It's a super rare highly collectable muscle car and should be treated as such.

How many stock condition '71 401 Javelins are left 'out there'?

Probably under 50 cars left? -generous estimate?

Some cars deserve restoration, some don't.

A 'high option' '71 401 Javelin that originally came with 'Machine wheels'?

Definitely 'yes' -this is a car that deserves an authentic restoration, plain and simple.


Thank you Dave, I did post those questions in a different thread but you were the first to answer all of them.
 1. The motor was properly machined and rebuilt. The only thing less than ideal was it was balanced to the billet steel FW
  2. The 727 would have needed a rebuild in order for me to have POM. 
  3.  I couldn't bring myself to cutting my driveline
  4.  Once I realized I could get the parts AND expertise to build the m12 locally the decision to O/H it was easy
  5.  Originality is a concern but only from the perspective that it's the way it was when grandpa drove it
  6.  Market value is irrelevant to me as it's now an heirloom 



Edited by rsrguy3 - Feb/16/2020 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rsrguy3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2020 at 11:03am
Mom called the car "the beast" she had to drive it during a time period when the family was down a car. She hated left turns into traffic as she couldn't put the power down without imparting rubber to the road. So the trans worked well when it did work. The whole purpose for my purchase of the 727 was because I was under the erroneous assumption I couldn't get parts for the m12 trans. Between the needs of a machined crank, lokar kick down, trans rebuild, and driveline mod, I reviseted the bw parts issue here and you all came through for me. Thank you for the support.

The wisdom shared here will be invaluable, one thing I've learned in particular is the m12  in my car had the factory shift kit (the performance is in line with the shift kit description) so if I end up with a non 71 valve body we'll need to match springs to get the correct action. 


Edited by rsrguy3 - Feb/16/2020 at 11:24am
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