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M12 Transmission estimate |
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AMXFSTBK390
AMC Addicted Joined: Oct/22/2013 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 3489 |
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Posted: Aug/01/2018 at 7:28pm |
Getting very close to maiden voyage in my 68 AMX. Bought the AMX from deceased owner's family. Had not been driven since 1981. I'm 2nd owner. Orig owner kept daily detailed log on car. The engine was frozen and block was not usable. Bought another bare block from Galvin's. The M12 was totally rebuilt 44 years ago and has 48,726 miles since rebuild. The new tq converter is 39 years old and has 12,000 miles on it. Want to have the M12 serviced before bolting it to the rebuilt engine and installing from under the car. Went to an established transmission/rear end shop that does a lot of classic car transmissions. Explained the history of the M12 and asked what he would charge to freshen up the M12. He knew the M12 has FMX components. He said because the car has not been driven in 37 years the seals are probably bad and the tq converter needs looking at. I asked best case scenario what is it going to cost. He quickly said $750.00. I mentioned I could get a master overall kit from APD and he said he'd rather provide his own parts. During this time, there was a transmission vendor listening who had made a few comments. The shop owner said he couldn't get to it until next week and I could drop the M12 off at anytime between now and then. I walked away feeling a little uneasy and wonder if this shop is playing me. What do you think.
I should note this shop did excellent work on my gorgeous Chevy 69 step side truck when it was hit on the rear driver corner while parked in front of my house. The other driver's insurance company paid for a new 12 bolt axle housing, replaced one cracked 8 x 15 alloy wheel, axles, one muffler, one rear fender, and frame straightening. The shop owner really went to bat for me with the insurance company. Neighbors that hit my truck were really angry about it.
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WesternRed
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/03/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5808 |
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Price up the service kit, add a set of clutches, the cost of getting the bands re-lined, torque converter service, add about one full day of labor and see what you come up with, probably not too far off $750 I'm guessing. What sort of warranty will he give you on the work?
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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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I'd put it in and drive it. I put in a used one about 35 years ago, so probably an original 60's era, and it is still doing well. As for the estimate, reasonable enough. If it needs T/C work or bands they will probably charge you more.
Edited by vinny - Aug/01/2018 at 8:37pm |
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AMXFSTBK390
AMC Addicted Joined: Oct/22/2013 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 3489 |
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I think what made me feel uneasy was the visiting transmission vendor's dutiful comments that supported the shop owner's remarks. Anyway APD's master overhaul kit for M12 includes new clutches, seals, gaskets, filters @ $129.00. See picture.
The M12 ran fine before the AMX was parked due to a blown head gasket. So what could happen to a tq converter that has not been run in 37 years? I ask because my knowledge about rebuilding an automatic transmission is very limited. So roughly the shop wants $600 for labor to freshen up a m12. I was thinking all it would need is new front and rear main seal, gaskets and filter. Maybe $90 in parts. Labor would be two hours. Total 300$. I would provide the ATF. I'm way off?
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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I would risk it. I would drop the pan, clean the screen/filter and inspect the fluid. If you have only a little gray sludge, that's good. You can remove the driveshaft and replace the rear seal and you might want to replace the shift shaft seal while the pan is off. You would have to drop the tranny to do the front seal. but if the torque converter didn't hang on the front pump at all, (or for very long) the front seal might be OK. Replace the pan gasket and the fluid and drive it. Joe
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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PHAT69AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/07/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 5926 |
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A guess on possible Converter condition concerns...
Surface corrosion on internal parts due to sitting "dry" without lubrication depending on position and storage location environment, or even just "dirt". Basically there are 3 sets of "fan blades" in there, some bearings, and a sprag clutch. Not that I think there "are", just what that guy's reasoning may be. When I was yet a "wee lad", maybe 24, and only a car mechanic "hobbyist" I did rebuild my Borg Warner Automatic out of my '69 343 all by myself in my apartments kitchen floor using my 1969 AMC Technical Service Manual and the Trans DID WORK when I installed it! Most worrisome thing I remember are the Main Shaft Iron Seal Rings that you have to get the Drum Assembly down and over without damaging the seal rings. BUT it was a long time ago and I may be forgetting details, like I fail to recall details about Clutch Pack Assembly... ( springs & clip rings ). What I did find was a sneaky little broken SPRING on the Servo Arm Rod Self Adjuster. I removed the Self Adjuster and used a Left Hand Thread Jam Nut. Point Being if you have aptitude and a TSM, may wanna consider re-freshing it your self. I was happy to see the parts and understand what happens inside that "magic box" Auto Trans...
Edited by PHAT69AMX - Aug/01/2018 at 10:24pm |
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AMXFSTBK390
AMC Addicted Joined: Oct/22/2013 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 3489 |
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Pacerman, I'm becoming interested in replacing the front & rear main seal, gaskets and cleaning the screen/filter. The tq converter has been on a bench since I removed it. The M12 is sitting on a 2x10's since I removed it. Where can I get a front seal puller or can a dent puller get it out? Can a a socket and mallet install the seal? Guess the same would apply to the rear seal? I already drained most of the fluid out of the pan. I thought some disassembly had to be done to replace the shift shaft seal.
If I don't have the proper tools I may get a second estimate on what should be done to freshen the M12. I do have the TSM so I read it and see if doing it myself is a viable alternative. Is a work bench transmission stand necessary.
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WesternRed
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/03/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5808 |
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Since it has done 50,000 miles and then sat for 37 years, I would put the whole kit through it. It’s not just input and output seals, but lots of other rubber seals inside that have possibly dried out and/or perished. You can certainly save yourself some money by doing the job yourself. Could take a chance on the converter so long as no dirt has gotten into it. Bands should be inspected as well, they are only available exchange and/or by having your existing ones re-lined these days. You are assuming that none of the bushes are worn, reasonable assumption, but you won’t know until you pull it apart, they will incur additional cost if replacement is required. I think a little more than 2 hours work is required to do one of these properly.
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AMXFSTBK390
AMC Addicted Joined: Oct/22/2013 Location: SF Bay Area Status: Offline Points: 3489 |
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Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. Got a second quote from R Performance a transmission/rearend shop. He came in at $450.00 if I supply the Master Rebuild kit from APD ($129.00). The owner has worked for several established transmission shops in the past twenty years. He remembers seeing me at car shows and and at the GM dealership I worked for. He is very familiar with the M12. Now I believe the M12 is in Good Hands. R Perf came highly recommended by the front end shop that is presently installing bushings in the control arms. Beginning to look like the 68 AMX will be on the road soon.
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Questions are powerful tools...what's in your toolbox?
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69 ambassador 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/22/2009 Location: Peoria, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3539 |
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I rebuild these all the time. The kit you pictured usually comes with incorrect seals in a few places as well as the wrong input and output seals depending on your application. Most shops will want to source their own parts because of this. The bands are your major wear items and are not included. Neither is the sprag or any bushings or selective thrust washers. Just changing the clutches can change end play settings. If you go cheap and only seal the outside, then it won't leak outside. It may leak inside. |
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Steve Brown
Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
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