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Jeff's Headers using Grace Billet

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Jmerican View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jmerican Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 12:27am
Form and function-at the junction. Very nice parts and a brilliant concept. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 12:31am
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:

Great looking AMX and very nice man to become acquainted with.
He makes that car run Great! using a stock Motorcraft carburetor? ('class rule' requirement?)
Here is an interesting link related to carburetor cfm size which gives additional insight on why some people like these can make big power with what otherwise seems to be a small carb:

http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engineering_basics/power_and_torque.htm

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/thermal_efficiency.htm


Commentary on the headers: The 'fit quality' is the tough part, and this looks like a good fit ...and a lot of work.

The chrome ? is more than 'eye candy': better than paint, it's a heat tolerant protective coating to prevent rust and give longer lifespan for all the hard work done.

As I understand it, the stepped header concept is done in order to create stronger exhaust pulse signals -to increase volumetric efficiency (to increase airflow through the engine)

However, someone like "Headers by Ed" would argue against stepped header design by asserting they lose their stronger signal due to decreased velocity caused by the various expansions of the tubing diameter.

http://www.headersbyed.com/


These two companies (Headers by Ed and EPI Engineering) are my two most influential teachers when it came time to make XRV8 Gremlin's headers.

As far as I can tell, both their instructions tend to agree with the Laws of Physics as set forth on  Georgia State University's website named "HyperPhysics":

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html


The chrome plating will help insulate and hold heat in the tubes to increase exhaust vapor velocity. If they were simply painted black, black (and other dark colors) have higher emmissivity to release heat from the tubing which would reduce exhaust vapor velocity (reduce air speed) -as outlined in Law of Physics pertaining to 'gas laws'.

As I understand it, the primary physics of good induction and scavenging systems is called 'constructive and destructive interference' -a particular category of gas flow/behavior of a vapor flowing through a tube.

Constructive and destructive resonance is a major factor in what is called 'ram effect' and/or 'scavenging effect'.

I don't believe constructive and destructive resonance is a new discovery in Laws of Physics, rather it's been known for a comparatively long time?

It has to do with molecular vibration energy which organizes in 'waves', and acoustics -where sound energy (which is a vibration) demonstrates wave formation as well -both molecular and sound waves have 'resonant frequencies' and both have interplay with intelligent header design.

Resonant frequencies, molecular and acoustic, have to do with 'tuned length' header design.

We should be able to hear a distinct change in the sound of this car due to the stepped header design changing the acoustic/sound wave formations coming out of the engine.

Obviously the purpose here, on this particular drag race car, is to create increased scavenging effect, in the higher rpm ranges, hopefully to increase the airflow through the engine with a stock AM Motorcraft 4300 carb? (whereas the Motorcraft 4350 is a spread bore like Rochester Quadrajet)



I would like to say everything you stated is spot on...

I found coating the headers to have more benefits than just keeping the heat in the pipes to increase velocity. I also found it very beneficial to keep the engine compartment temp drastically down, the coating is worth every penny.

I think Headers by Ed is correct if the step caused the exhaust temp to cool would slow down the velocity. 

I found that pipe size is also related to the RPM range along with the power range. After testing the 1 5/8 made the most HP all the way up to 5800 RPM at which point the 1 3/4 took off making more power. So in order to have a good average from 3500 RPM to 6800 RPM a stepped header was selected and ceramic coating would keep the highest temps in the pipes for velocity.

One more thing Headers by Ed did extensive testing with is the cone on the collector. He kept reducing the dia. smaller and smaller and the car kept going faster and faster. Jim Dugan made me a venturi insert reducing the hat of the Super Scavenger Collector he made at 3.0" down to 2.5". The purpose of this was to create a low pressure and draw the exhaust out. He also explained to have the pipes aligned in a rotational firing order to create a swirl in order to get more flow. 

At the Engine Masters Challenge I have seen how this is achieved getting around the rules of coarse after the fact...LOL.. The person who won was hitting 570HP with his 1 5/8 headers. When the spectators said I was one of 3 who were lifting the 10 inch exhaust pipes off the jack stands out side the building I new there was more power to be gained.

I have found the ram effect to include intake runner size and length which is where the Pro Flo 2 came into play and did its job. This came about by a patent attorney who took fluid dynamics at Yale. Turns out he was correct and the number doubled. Turns out the smaller runner intake un ported is spot on with Edelbrocks 1500 -7000 RPM range and like Terry said there is a 500 RPM fudge factor and it took the SS 290 to confirm the intake was good for 7500 RPM.

So I guess my question would be what is the best actual size intake runner for the majority and is the Patent attorney correct that runner size goes hand & hand with primary pipe size which goes hand & hand with the RPM range and the length of the primary pipes fine tunes in the peak torque RPM?

All testing was done with an X pipe 3" exhaust system and the difference between 18' collector extensions and exhaust system was no more than 5 HP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 6:42am
Grace Billet and Jeff's Headers make a winning combo, and look great doing it !

Two questions

1. Is there any reason to think that this design wouldn't work for road racing?

2. Has anyone tried 180 degree headers on an AMC V8 and what were the results?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 74Bubblefender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 7:25am
Beautiful work..really nice!!
We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 9:17am
Hmm, savory brain food posted by jtsllc1 -thanks.

I couldn't tell by looking at the pics if the header pipes are high tech coated or chrome -thanks for taking no offense.

I was just reading EPI's article on exhaust system technology and found this quote which I thought was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm

"Whenever the pressure wave encounters a change in cross-sectional area of the pipe, a reflected pressure wave is generated, which travels in the opposite direction"

...The man's an excellent technical writer and one of my favorite teachers for all his excellent explanations.

As far as the interplay between induction and scavenging systems on this drag race AMX, I'd say  there is more swirl flow designed into '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads than is commonly known.

I think D. Elgin (D. Elgin Racing cams) would enjoy cutting a cam for your engine. He knows AMV8 like nobody else because he attended an SAE speech given by AM engineer who designed '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads. (surprise-surprise) In my estimation, he's one of the few highly educated professional cam grinders who actually favors American Motors engines enough to  advocate their merits.  I'd say, he's the 'go to guy' in our AMC world right now if you need a cam cut specifically for your custom built engine.

https://elgincams.com/


'Grace Billet'? -Looking good!

More power to you. I'm always an admirer of your work with that AMX. Super cool/Love it.


Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boris Badanov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 9:24am
Pretty job, but those collectors look a bit restrictive.
But they are eye candy for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 1:33am
Originally posted by White70JavelinSST White70JavelinSST wrote:

Grace Billet and Jeff's Headers make a winning combo, and look great doing it !

Two questions

1. Is there any reason to think that this design wouldn't work for road racing?

2. Has anyone tried 180 degree headers on an AMC V8 and what were the results?

1) Turns out Jim Paschal (NASCAR GT) used a similar design except he used 1 5/8 primary pipes and Jim got it to work well with the Cross Ram winning 7 out of 8 races. Most important he figured out you need to finish the race to win the race.

The Grace Billet on Jeff's headers create a venturi effect providing even more flow. Plus the Grace Billet eliminates the need for a  header gasket so there will be no issue blowing the gasket out and risking damage to the exhaust valve.

2) I have discussed the 180 deg. but I ended up thinking about having 2 sets of 2 into 1 on each side with a balance tube between each side so that would require 2 balance tubes. Penske did this on his Javelin but he had to modify the bell housing to allow one balance tube and the other was after the trans cross member. Allison also had some piping going on with his Hornet.


Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 2:40am
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:

Hmm, savory brain food posted by jtsllc1 -thanks.

I couldn't tell by looking at the pics if the header pipes are high tech coated or chrome -thanks for taking no offense.

I was just reading EPI's article on exhaust system technology and found this quote which I thought was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm

"Whenever the pressure wave encounters a change in cross-sectional area of the pipe, a reflected pressure wave is generated, which travels in the opposite direction"

...The man's an excellent technical writer and one of my favorite teachers for all his excellent explanations.

As far as the interplay between induction and scavenging systems on this drag race AMX, I'd say  there is more swirl flow designed into '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads than is commonly known.

I think D. Elgin (D. Elgin Racing cams) would enjoy cutting a cam for your engine. He knows AMV8 like nobody else because he attended an SAE speech given by AM engineer who designed '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads. (surprise-surprise) In my estimation, he's one of the few highly educated professional cam grinders who actually favors American Motors engines enough to  advocate their merits.  I'd say, he's the 'go to guy' in our AMC world right now if you need a cam cut specifically for your custom built engine.

https://elgincams.com/


'Grace Billet'? -Looking good!

More power to you. I'm always an admirer of your work with that AMX. Super cool/Love it.



 I was lucky to hook up with Jim Dugan who was one of the pioneers of Racing. Dugan was contracted by Mickey Thompson, Penske, Carol Shelby etc.etc..... Jim was a mentor and filled me in on his years of experience of what works and what does not. Jim has several patents including the Super Scavenger collector so we joined together and came up with Grace / Dugan  Equipped.  Jim owns a header manufacturing facility and re made the die to re produce his original Super Scavenger Collector. Jim produced the Super Scavenger Header for M/T back in the day to be used on a Javelin M/T Equipped for an AMC dealer. Unfortunately Jim passed away before I went to the Engine Masters Challenge. His wife decided to keep Jim's business running after his passing as long as the Employees were on board. The testing I have done leans toward a 1 5/8 stepped to 1 3/4 with a total primary pipe length of 30". The primary pipe lengths are equalized in the new Super Scavenger slip on collector with a venturi hat. The venturi hat reduces to 2.5 " and backup to 3" with a V band to connect to 3" exhaust.  I have tested and found no problems handling 500+ HP allowing for a 3 piece per side 30 minute install.

Engle Cams did the Traco AMC and Chevrolet engines along with NASCAR engines except Bobby Allison used Reed Cams and he ended up building his own engines resulting in more HP. As of today Spiro Jennings of Red Line Cams who got allot of his education while working at Engle Cams from John  also favors AMC. I quickly learned at the Engine Masters I was competing against engines who use Spiro cams. I guess it was a bonding experience because everyone at breakfast has Spiro's number in their phones. They did say Spiro has an unconventional way but he makes HP and we all know if you are not making HP you are just farting in the wind. Adkins Uses Comp Cams and Red Line, Spiro was able to grind a cam reducing spring pressure resulting in longer lasting springs and some extra HP. Spiro also ground Jeff's best cam for Stock Eliminator with .457 lift the 390 dyno numbers were 555HP with an R4B and was tested to 8500 RPM only losing 8 HP. Spiro also ground the roller cam in Jeff's current Super Stock combo and all Jeff has to say is it has a .500 base circle and the lifts are .850/.825. Who knows maybe the SS 290 will run Spiro's grind in the future.




Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote one bad rambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 7:46pm
Those Are Sweet!!!!
68 AMX 390 4 Speed,68 American,64 American 2 Door Wagon Altered Wheelbase,78 Concord Build 360,727,8.8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klvn8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/11/2019 at 9:38pm
FWIW....I have the underhood pictures of the Paschal Javelin and the 'weird' "headers", along with the GM style front stub.  There's a fair chance that they've been posted before, or someone made copies.

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