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Is It Spark knock? |
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1969amcrebel
AMC Apprentice Joined: May/20/2014 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Posted: Sep/19/2017 at 7:31pm |
343 Engine running smooth til i get on it sounds like a rattling or a pinging? not sure almost like a catalytic converter rattling but the car still has power etc.
put in premium gas still the same.???? help please
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DaemonForce
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/05/2012 Location: Olympia, WA Status: Offline Points: 1070 |
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Loose torque converter bolts? Too much timing?
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1971 Javelin SST
American 304 2v | FMX | AM20-3.31 1983 American Limited Jeep 4(.7)L S-MPFI | 1982 NWC T-5M (4.03/.76) | Dana30IFS/35-2.72 |
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ccowx
AMC Addicted Joined: Nov/03/2010 Location: Yukon Status: Offline Points: 3510 |
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Short answer is probably yes. You are also probably getting knock that you may not even be hearing. Cars can still seem to be performing well with detonation, until the pistons break that is!
Have you checked the timing? I would definitely check the overall timing, the initial and also the rate of advance. Use a dial back timing light and you can get at least a general idea. I would put the best gas you can in, crank the timing back to around 32-34 degrees btdc total(mechanical plus initial advance) and a nice slow rate of advance. You could even disconnect and plug the vacuum advance as well. Then see what you have. Another question that comes to mind, did it just start doing it? If it came on suddenly then perhaps something is broken. Also, am I understanding that it only does it when you accelerate sharply? If it was loose bolts in the drivetrain then it would probably do it in other circumstances. Just a few random thoughts! Chris |
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6768rogues
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6241 |
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Probably pinging. The engine needs to be tuned for modern gas so original tuning specs are not necessarily right today.
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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May not be "pinging" - also keep in mind unless the car has been worked on lately, meaning engine work - valve seals and so on, you may simply have carbon build up. We used to solve a lot of pinging caused by PRE-IGNITION, which is very very different from the pinging caused by DETONATION in almost every way - except both cause noise - by removing the carbon.
We'd warm the engine up, take the air cleaner off, fill a Coke bottle with water, hold the throttle open to high idle and slowly pour the water down the carb, being careful to not kill it, giving it more gas if necessary. Then we'd take it out and drive it on the highway, a good run. The next step was to find out WHY the carbon build-up. Often, and the 343 was no stranger to this, neither was the 390 for that matter, VALVE SEALS were often the cause - oil got in and build up the compression for one thing, and the carbon would get hot and GLOW, igniting the fuel mix prematurely, so it caused high compression and pre-ignition and hot spots. Cleaning the carbon out with the water or one of the products Wynn's used to offer often did the trick, fixing the reason for the carbon was the next step. We found a second common reason - the cars didn't often see the highway....... driven in town a lot, never truly warmed up and gotten hot, up to temperature, and that caused sludge and acids in the pan, carbon in the combustion chamber, pinging, etc. You may have other things going on - like mentioned I've seen a loose or cracked flex plate or converter sound almost like a "knock"............. there are a lot of things you can do to diagnose - like temporarily setting the timing back to see if it's detonation. Checking compression to see if there's carbon build up, etc. causing pre-ignition ping, you can look at the old spark plugs to get the story on engine condition, too - there are charts out there that will help you read a plug and see if there's detonation, oil consumption, carbon build-up and so on. I take it the coasts get really nasty gas - as around here the fuel really burns pretty much the same and I rarely tune differently for the gas unless I want to run "cheaper gas", lower octane. It was COMMON to call for a higher octane fuel in the late 60s - and today typical is 87. 87 may not cut it - 91 is the more common "premium" fuel here - you have to look to find 93 where 93 used to be common. If you have detonation, beware - you can't always hear it, the ping of detonation is a sonic wave caused by two flame front colliding in the chamber........ and if that happens, it can blow the unburned layer of mix off the piston and leave it unprotected against the flames. The chamber gases burn at the melting point of aluminum or above and if that unburned layer is blown away by detonation, the flame touches the piston top resulting in nasty stuff happening. Pre-ignition means something hot - like a too hot spark plug, glow carbon, etc. ignites the fuel before the spark does, effectively advancing the timing and causing the burning gases to push back against the rising piston - again, doing damage, including mashing bearings, busting stuff, etc. |
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george w
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/27/2013 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 2899 |
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You'll likely to have to back off the timing a bit. Today's pump premium is not quite a high enough octane for the 343 4V compression ratio of 10.2 to 1
Carbon build up, etc., etc. is most likely also a factor. I've had several cars with the 343 4V and they all were sensitive to octane ratings. You could try some octane booster to see if that makes a difference. I've been trying the Royal Purple booster with Valero premium 93. It seems to work pretty well in my 69 AMX. I suspect that my vibration damper may have slipped or is slipping as the car runs best when not at TDC as per the stock spec. |
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Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.
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Boris Badanov
AMC Addicted Joined: Dec/14/2013 Location: NH USA Status: Offline Points: 4210 |
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I bet someone set the timing by "ear".
This is death in an AMC V8 Set the timing with a light to factory settings then re-adjust the idle. 91-93 grade fuel should do just fine. Todays gas is rated in a different manner but the octane rating of 93 grade is better than leaded premium of the early 1970's. What is missing is the Tetra Ethyl Lead. Also (as correctly stated above) todays gas has issues in older engines due to the added alcohol. But factory Timing settings will get you in the right direction. By the way, TEL is bad for an engine in every way except it protects the exhaust valve seats. Add to that it's POSION. |
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Gremlin Dreams
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george w
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/27/2013 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 2899 |
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A slipped damper can really throw off your timing accuracy. So can a worn timimg chain. If you're pinging or knocking then the timing is likely to be too far advanced.
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Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.
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