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Holley 390CFM tuning 258

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71hornet6 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71hornet6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2016 at 2:33pm
The CCV system is interesting. No PCV valve, just elbows on the valve cover. The back elbow sucks out valve cover gasses with manifold vacuum. The front elbow replaces that with fresh air from the intake.



The front and back elbows are different. The back one is "metered" meaning it has a small hole in it to minimize the amount of vacuum taken from the intake manifold.  The front elbow is full size.



I have seen some people use breathers instead of plumbing back to the intake.
I think the breather can work if it's providing enough restriction. The chrome breather I had in there was not super tight in the gromet and the filter had almost no restriction. When I sprayed it with a bunch of carb cleaner, it provided more restriction and the vacuum leak was minimized and the idle seemed to decrease because there was less air getting into the engine.

Do any of you have an idea of which would be better for tuning with the carb?
The breather would be "leaking" in air according to the filter resistance and manifold vacuum.
The CCV system plumbed back to the air intake would have a more complex relationship as it would relate to air intake suction AND manifold vacuum which respond differently over the RPM curve.
So the breather might be easier to account for in tuning the carb but it's also different than stock which is a proven system (but it probably goes back to the intake simply for smog reasons.)

I'll try the breather first since it's easier to setup.
'71 FrankenHornet:
'72 258 '95 4.0L Head Holley 390CFM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2016 at 3:12pm
A PCV valve is nothing more than a metered hole with a spring loaded check valve to prevent a back fire from getting through it, otherwise the systems are functionally identical as to the objectives as to how they work, fresh filtered air goes in the front of the valve cover and crank case fumes get sucked into the intake of the engine to get burned. It ain't rocket science!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pdok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2016 at 6:32pm
The grommet is your problem, but you'll need the correct valve to get the orifice to reduce the vacuum draw. Replace both and it should solve that issue. You will never get the carb right if you can't control the vacuum leakage.

PCV is by design a controlled vacuum leak, just small enough to do the job. A breather is exactly the same thing as connecting to intake, just a source of filtered air. You can do it either way same result.

Hesco sells that grommet and valve for the cover in the picture, pretty cheap. It's a standard part anywhere will sell it I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2016 at 7:03pm
There is nothing in the component configuration that says the system will not work as configured using a crank case vent on the valve cover as an input air source and the metered fitting as pictured rather than a pcv. What needs to be done is one issue at a time addressed with out changing every thing at the same time and to start with it would be nice to see what the cam spec's are so one can have some idea what needs to be adjusted or left alone as an OEM specification!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71hornet6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2016 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Pdok Pdok wrote:

The grommet is your problem, but you'll need the correct valve to get the orifice to reduce the vacuum draw. Replace both and it should solve that issue. You will never get the carb right if you can't control the vacuum leakage.

PCV is by design a controlled vacuum leak, just small enough to do the job. A breather is exactly the same thing as connecting to intake, just a source of filtered air. You can do it either way same result.

Hesco sells that grommet and valve for the cover in the picture, pretty cheap. It's a standard part anywhere will sell it I think.


I put in a better breather and that increased vacuum. I will try putting a needle valve inline to the intake vacuum so I can turn that off or adjust it. If I turn off vacuum to the valve cover ventilation, it will still exhaust passively.
I'll try this tomorrow.
'71 FrankenHornet:
'72 258 '95 4.0L Head Holley 390CFM
AX15 with R154 gears 5 speed Hurst shifter
AMC20 rear axle Detroit TrueTrac
Dual Exhaust
Concord Discs Spirit AMX sway bars
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2016 at 6:11am
You might try just replacing the elbow with orifice with an in-line PCV valve for a 258. Sounds like you might have a leak in the system after the orifice. Check the hard plastic line for cracks, and check fit into the fittings. An air leak there will be a problem.

I have that same setup with my Renix system, or similar. I'm using a generic push-in breather and grommet in the cast aluminum valve cover. Just picked it up at a local parts store. I had to replace the plastic line and one of the elbows, but I don't think mine has the elbow with orifice -- it has a limiter/baffle built into the valve cover... I think... would have to look that up to be sure...

You do have a lot going on at the same time! That makes it hard to troubleshoot and get tuned. Have to systematically deal with one issue at a time. Start with the most obvious ones, like the PCV/CCV system, and work through one at a time. I know with the engine not running quite right it can be hard, as one thing affects another, so you might have to go back and adjust what you thought you just fixed again. No other way to do it though...


Edited by farna - Apr/28/2016 at 6:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramblin64sw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2016 at 9:14am
On my 4.0 valve cover, I replaced the the metered fitting at the back of the valve cover with a push in style pcv valve. I've had no issues, I can dig up part numbers if it helps you. I think it was off a chevy 250? Don't give up, it will be worth the effort in the end! As Farna say's, take it one problem at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71hornet6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2016 at 6:09pm
Everyone was right
The vacuum leak was what was keeping me from turning down the Holley idle
So I did a little experiment with a ball valve and some hose clamps



Once I put the hose clamps on the hose from the manifold to the elbow, that already lowered the idle because they were leaking a little but it wasn't enough. I rotated around between distributor, idle stop screw, idle mixture and played with the ball valve a little bit so it was letting in even less air and I was able to get to my goal of 13 degrees initial timing at 600RPM idle. I know these numbers are somewhat arbitrary but I feel like I'm close. EDIT: that's way too much advance. It wanted to backfire. For the moment I have it set at 10 degrees, 700RPM idle.

The vacuum was up to 19 now so I may need a different power valve. I have an 8.5 in there. Seems like a ton of vacuum which is why the "metered elbow" was too big I guess. Also because the breather has an easier time getting fresh air than something plumbed after the air box I would guess.

I also should put something less stupid under the hood than a ball valve. Maybe I can thread a Holley jet into the metered elbow.


Edited by 71hornet6 - Apr/29/2016 at 5:33pm
'71 FrankenHornet:
'72 258 '95 4.0L Head Holley 390CFM
AX15 with R154 gears 5 speed Hurst shifter
AMC20 rear axle Detroit TrueTrac
Dual Exhaust
Concord Discs Spirit AMX sway bars
Back to Top
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/29/2016 at 7:10am
Replace the ball valve with an in-line PCV valve. That will probably solve the problem. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71hornet6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/29/2016 at 11:59am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

Replace the ball valve with an in-line PCV valve. That will probably solve the problem. 



Do you have a year make model you would recommend for this
Or should I just pick any smog 258
Edit: looking around there are about a million PCV valves. Ideally it would be inline 1/2". I guess I'll shop around for that. Hopefully it will have some resistance to it

Edited by 71hornet6 - Apr/29/2016 at 1:39pm
'71 FrankenHornet:
'72 258 '95 4.0L Head Holley 390CFM
AX15 with R154 gears 5 speed Hurst shifter
AMC20 rear axle Detroit TrueTrac
Dual Exhaust
Concord Discs Spirit AMX sway bars
Back to Top
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