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Got 'er running ! SOLVED !

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TH_Gremlin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH_Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/17/2014 at 8:13pm
Well I went out and pumped the accelerator with the car running, and it gave me three quick backfires out of the air-horn, then died.  Not really sure what that means, but I've got a feeling it might have something to do with the accelerator pump.

So I went and reset everything completely like it should be, tried a myriad of different suggestions, and none of them worked.  Now, I can't even get the throttle past a certain point before it starts bogging down.  I'm thinking about throwing this carb off of a bridge, and getting an aftermarket that can be serviced without having to get a degree from MIT to get it setup properly.  The Holley I had was exponentially simpler, but I was worried it was too much carburetor (500cfm) for the motor.

Now I'm beginning to worry about the integrity of the engine (it came with a turbo on it, so God knows what else the monkey did to it), and have completely lost faith in this carburetor.  We've got a mystery engine with unknown miles on it, and was put through God knows what before I bought it.  I'm not sure I want to dump $300 on a rebuilt carb, only to find that it won't fix the bogging problem either.  I've got a strong feeling that this '77 came with a bunch of smog and emissions parts from the factory, but Dirty Juan Sanchez-Menendez (not his real name) decided to rip it all out with a chainsaw, a roofing hammer, and a pry-bar.  For all I know, the absence of those systems is causing an imbalance that won't allow the car to run properly.

Rebuilt long-block i-6's are staggeringly expensive, considering you can get a smallblock Chevy V8 for around $850.  I think I recall somewhere that a small-block Chevy V8 would drop into a Gremlin with relative ease.  Can anyone confirm this ??

Bleh !


Edited by TH_Gremlin - Sep/17/2014 at 8:38pm
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Fluffy73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fluffy73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/17/2014 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by purple72Gremlin purple72Gremlin wrote:

If Im not mistaken, the accelerator pump on that BBD is vaccum operated just like the YF so I dont believe that double pump by hand is conclusive. But since Im not there, I cant see what the engine is doing


Sorry, the BBD's accelerator pump is strictly mechanical, driven by a linkage off the throttle. Note the rod going into the linkage with 2 other holes near it. Adjustable level of squirt.



If you're experiencing an off-idle bog, try running it with your vacuum advance disconnected (but be sure to plug everything so you don't have a vacuum leak).  If the bog goes away, then you know it's ignition related.  I'm going through this very same issue with my blue Hornet. Once thing is for certain, we're not using gasoline from 40 years ago. Our cars were not designed to run on alcohol-infused water.  Timing advance curves need to be adjusted accordingly.  This is where things start getting really technical.

Try disconnecting vacuum advance first. The other shadetree trick to do is set your base timing for "Best Idle". That is highest/smoothest RPM possible and with highest vacuum reading possible.  Then, reset your idle, and go for a test run. If it runs good but pings at high rpm, back off timing by 2 degrees and re-test.  You'll probably need a dial-back timing light for this as you'll probably go off the timing mark scale.

My 258 for instance seems to like 14° initial timing.



And in answer to your other question.... well, I can't think of any way to sugar-coat this.  If you can't get the stock six to run properly, do you really think you want to tackle putting a Chevy V8 in your car? Changing fuel systems, electrical, suspension, trans, driveline??


Edited by Fluffy73 - Sep/17/2014 at 10:02pm
I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/17/2014 at 10:03pm
A small block Chevy can go into that Gremlin as easy as it did with my Hornet.  But changing an engine from what it was to what it was not designed for is never a drop in and always requires modifications. 
A Carter BBD is not a duck soup carburetor but I have built a number of them and used one on a fully smog legal 140 hp version of a 258 and it ran fine until you ran out of carburetor.  A BBD is only 193 cfm and the are at the limit right around 3000 rpm and the engine will run flat no matter how you configure it.
Removing the smog equipment is pretty much pointless if there is nothing wrong with it, but that is not your question, your question is more of the if removed it screws things up.  And the cigar goes to the guy who said only if you screwed up taking it off wrong and there are some who are terribly creative that way. 
Taking it off correctly pretty much converts it back to 1970 configuration and that ain't rocket science. 
My Bone Stock fully smog legal 80 AMX runs fine if anemic is satisfactory. It will run well in city traffic and cruise at Freeway Speeds.  It is afraid of 7% grades and has been known to get almost 30 mpg driven sanely. 
A 500 cfm carburetor on a 258 is good for 6000 rpm on the engine if you build the engine right.  A BBD is good for 3000 rpm.  I have built nice street I-6's using 400 cfm and 450 cfm Carter AFB and they work well on the street because of the air demand configuration of the secondaries.  A Carter or Edelbrock now is very forgiving to being over carbureted. 
Unfortunately obviously there must be unknowns about the engine that do not read well in a forum format, but they are not rocket science, and complicated or not, should run more than adequate with a BBD.


70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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TH_Gremlin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH_Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2014 at 8:28am
Thanks for the responses, and tolerating my venting.  I'm still very very new at all this, and it can be frustrating.

I think I might have identified a part of last-night's diagnostic problem.  Apparently I had the choke wide-open, and this car has never accelerated well with the choke wide open.  Whoopsie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2014 at 9:40am
I have found having a manual to explain how things work takes a lot of guess work out of troubleshooting.  On Mike's Carburetor Service there is a manual you can print out on the Careter bbd caraburetor at the following URL:


See if this will not help you some. 

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80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tyrodtom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/18/2014 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by TH_Gremlin TH_Gremlin wrote:

Thanks for the responses, and tolerating my venting.  I'm still very very new at all this, and it can be frustrating.

I think I might have identified a part of last-night's diagnostic problem.  Apparently I had the choke wide-open, and this car has never accelerated well with the choke wide open.  Whoopsie.


Are you saying, even when the engine is warm, the choke has to be partly closed for the engine to accelerate well ?

Or are you saying you overdone it by getting on the gas too hard, with a cold engine, and the choke fully open ?
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH_Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/19/2014 at 8:32am
tyrodtom: The car does not like to run (either at maintained throttle, or accelerate) with the choke wide-open at any engine temperature.  I have a manual choke on here now, and you have to find the "sweet spot" in the choke when you're driving it down the road.  This is true even once the engine has reached operating temperature.  I talked to one of my car-guy buddies yesterday at lunch, and he said the goon that put all that "performance" garbage on this engine might have put a lower-temperature thermostat in the engine, too.  I should have guessed.  The thermostat housing has been painted with glittery blue paint (of course.  Why stop the Dirty Sanchez routine with just the fuel induction system?).  So I went down to the parts house, and procured a 192-degree thermostat (someone correct me if that's not right), some of that high-temp RTV, and a rubber o-ring.  I'll probably get into it this evening, just to see what happens. 

THanks guys !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tyrodtom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/19/2014 at 8:46am
If you have to have the choke pulled a little all the time, even when the engine is warm, then that points to a basic problem with your carb.
It's not rich enough, the jets are too small or clogged, or for some reason you're not getting enough fuel to the carb. venturi to produce the right fuel-air ratio. Pulling the choke on a warm engine is a crutch to richen up the mixture, not a solution.

Even if the previous owner put in a 160 degree thermostat, that's no reason for you to have to run with the choke pulled a little all the time.

Have you checked your plugs lately ?

   It doesn't have to be a problem with the carb.,   but it is a problem with the fuel system.   For some reason not enough fuel is getting to the carb. venturi to produce the right fuel-air ratio. It could be the fuel pump, fuel filter, any restriction in the fuel system could result in the same lean running engine, that you are trying to compensate for by pulling the choke.

Edited by tyrodtom - Sep/19/2014 at 11:20am
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TH_Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/22/2014 at 8:43pm
I pulled the thermostat housing, and discovered that there was no thermostat in there at all.  I purchased a thermostat, and new thermostat housing (the old one was eaten up on the inside).  I went out and fired it up, and immediately noticed a leak when I revved the engine up.  I had trouble keeping the thermostat in place as I tried to install the housing, apparently I compromised the gasket a bit.  Whoopsie.

Results pending, but I don't expect this to fix the problem.  Actually... I do need to remove the sending unit from the fuel tank.  Maybe that will provide some insight about the possibility of crap in the tank or something.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/22/2014 at 9:04pm
what color are the spark plugs, they can tell you a lot about how the car is running
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