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Going to set timing this morning.

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purple72Gremlin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 8:46am
And the motorcraft ignition will have 2 wires for power, one for run, the other for start.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 10:59am
Correct, Tom.  Some electronic systems are basically "electronic points" or points eliminators - and as such still require a resistor - depending on the coil and other engineering considerations.
Motorcraft did have that in some designs, and AMC used one such design, at least up to 1982.

I stand by all statements. It's what I do, what I've done, where my degrees and experience are.
Too many urban legends floating around, too much has become the "defacto" and "accepted".
42 years ago I designed and installed my first alarm system, and an emergency lighting system in a commercial business - a hardware store. I was 15 at the time. I rewound and rewired a Prestolite wiper motor when I was 14.
 I took senior electronic classes as a sophomore. 1 credit shy of graduating early.
Our auto shop instructor was having problems with an engine and I said I'd take it home and get it working and bring it back the next day. He made a bet with me that he was right and I was wrong. It cost him - he had to build me a custom engine test stand when he lost the bet.
I skipped the first 2 years of shop and auto by sitting and explaining to the teacher how a Holley 4bbl operated - all circuits, and how a Ford C6 transmission operated, including identifying all of the valve body parts and case passages, showing/explaining the power flow in each gear.
Yeah, I think I can pretty well feel confident in my abilities and knowledge on a good day.
So I stand by what I said.

Measuring voltage at the coil end of the ignition lead wire -
When there is no load on the system, you can put the volt meter on the coil end of the resistance wire-  or the out-end of the ballast, and get a voltage reading - however that's with no real current flow - only that going through the meter to ground, add the load of the ignition system and you will find it's different. And due to the nature of the primary side of the ignition system, that 'voltage' will vary with engine RPM, dwell, etc.  So although you can give a range or generalize how to determine if there's a resistor or resistance wire there or not, you can't say there's a specific voltage. My meter may allow more through it than your meter, my battery at rest may show the correct 12.6 volts with the surface charge removed, you may have just shut your engine off and the battery is still showing 13 volts or so. Or maybe my battery is older or weak and showing only 12.5 or 12.4 volts when I take a measurement. So we can talk of a range, but can't nail a specific voltage at the resistor's coil side. Some coils will present a slightly different load than others, the point dwell will vary the voltage measured as depending on dwell and engine speed, the drop through the resistance may be more or less than on another car. The specs even show a range, not an absolute. And since resistance wires seldom go bad other than going "open", IMO, if it's even close to the spec, it's fine unless I show other indications on my scope pattern. (I got my first job after college by being able to read a scope pattern and solving a mysterious issue that the service manager of the shop was having with a customer car - he was stumped, spent some time with it, I spent 60 seconds)

Compared to some - yes, I am an expert. I stand by what I've said.
BTW - care to reveal the reason a condenser is used on the primary side of a points type ignition system?
It's one thing to say one knows then use Google and respond later, another to quickly and instantly, from memory, pull it up.   (by the way, some of what's found in Google will be incorrect, too)

As far as the books being wrong at times - I can demonstrate that as well. Most of the things I state I can go to my library of texts and point to the page that supports my information.
If the TSM always followed production so well, we'd not have supplements released a few weeks or months later. I didn't say a lot or frequently, but often enough where I question some things - all based on experience.

I myself am wired differently and because of that one of my strong suits is perceptual reasoning - it's a side effect of a disability in my case. It can't be learned to the extreme levels I am cursed with. I can solve the problem but have no clue how.  And that sucks at work telling the boss you can fix it, or you have a solution, but not being able to plan it, to step-by-step the solution or explain how I found it.
It can cause a lot of stress at times. I can't do linear thought processing so don't ask for an explanation anyone else could understand.
LOL - so very often what I have to do is say "give it to me, trust me, I'll fix it and get it back to you" (and then be totally unable to explain what I found or how.)
It's a curse and I hate it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amxdreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 11:02am
In a court of law anyone with a level of knowledge greater than an average person they are considered an expert. I guess you're both experts...
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papacarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 2:09pm
Both of my AMC cars are set at 5 degrees advance. One is a 69 199; the other is an 81 258. The idle is 550 for manual transmission or 625 for automatic. Idle should be set at throttle screw, not air jet screw. That setting should be made after timing is set, and done with a Vac gauge and or tach. It also helps to mark line on crank pully with white chalk to help with visual. Distribitor vac line has to be disconnected and plugged. A golf tee works great for plugging the rubber hose
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fluffy73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 3:16pm
The long and the short of it, TSM's are great for reference but aren't always 100% correct. They are written well in advance of actual production and things get changed in production. TSM's aren't always 100% accurate and I've run into a couple instances where they are just plain wrong.

Bill hit the nail on the head with the line about early electronic ignitions being nothing more than points eliminators. Virtually any automobile that uses an old style coil will have some sort of resistance system built in. Been that way since the dawn of the 12 volt system.  The only real reason for doing this is simply to prolong coil life. That's it!

Hopefully, we haven't scared off TH with this little off-topic conversation! LOL


I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 3:21pm
And I
on the other hand stand by my credentials and back ground
Trouble shooting a points type or kettering ignition as generally applied to an automobile and specifically appllied to the current list of AMC and Rambler cars consist of a drawing as previously published or contained with some difficulty in interpretation due to drawing standards but and the operative word is but, described quite well well as a matter of theory in the appropriate section of the AMC or Rambler TSM's.
Simply speaking it consists of a 12 vdc switched thus on all the time as long as the ignition key is in the run mode applied to a ballast resistor or run through a ballast wire that has qprox equal ohms to it as does the ohms resistance of the ignition coil
The purpose of which when current flows through it when it does if the points are closed, a value equal to 1/2 of the battery applied voltage measured at the + terminal of the coil.
The exact value based on the then value of battery voltage and the resistance tolerance of the coil and ballast/or ballast wire.
When the points are open no current flows so the value read with the ignition switch on open ends back to the voltage source, the battery.
This is the basic operation and is predictable
The value's measured are standard values given in any basic automotive trouble shooting chart.
This is an ignition system designed in 1908 and describe in part as a Jump Spark ignition in the book titled the Trieste of the Modern Automobile printed in 1907.
One does not need to be a rocket scientist to interrogate things just basic automotive electronic knowledge and a simple volt meter.
The prerequisites to obtaining the appropriate responses are two measurements, one with the points open and the second with the points closed.  Either obtained by turning the engine by hand with a wrench or moving the fan belts while watching the points move.
This does not require years of study or a doctors degree but a wrench a screw driver some applied knowledge and simple volt meter.
I am not impressed by being blown off by some one who is impressed with their own back ground.  Nor by any stretch of imagination do I neither concede nor deny it is more impressive than mine. As this is not by any stretch of imagination my first rodeo I can recognize a wrong analysis and was paid quite well for many years for the ability to do it.
I do not need  a repertoire of accomplishments to justify the result, I need an ignition, a schematic, my knowledge and a meter to tell you if it is right or wrong and a min. or two to do it in.
If the conversion is done correctly there will be about 6 volts at the + terminal of the coil with the points closed and battery voltage at the same point with the points open.
The operational voltage made when the engine is running is a non issue as there is no importance attached to it at all.
If any importance is applied that point reading is a function of a dwell meter.
The only other variable is a ballast resistor by pass used when starting the car.  It is done in many fashions but on AMC products it is done by the "Start" terminal on the Ford (for lack of a better definition) start terminal used on both the standard and automatic equipped cars.  Other cars may do thing differently, their wiring or schematic diagrams will explain that. A chevy for example has a tit on the starter solenoid used on the starter body itself rather than remote as to the inner fenderwell.
As to a resistor wire include in the wiring harness the schematic or wiring diagrams for the 1975 + AMC cars using an electronic ignition indicate there is no longer a ballast or ignition wire as part of the wiring.  There is no need for one, they no longer use points thus no need for a ballast function and I have yet to see one.

This can be argued until it is blue in the face and will not be changed.  Basics are basics and they all work pretty much the same way with slight differences in application as to parts chosen.

The measurements are not only predictable but to be expected providing the circumstances are as defined.
If you are using a 6 volt system, then the values to be expected 3 volts with the points closed and 6 volts with the points open both made with engine NOT running and the ignition key in the ON mode.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocklandrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 5:21pm
PAPACARN stated: "the vacuum line from the distributor must be disconnected and plugged". I have TSM's for the '64 American, '65 American and '64 Classic/Ambo and in the TUNE UP section of each NOT ONE of them tells you to do that to adjust the timing. So are the TSM's wrong or is Papa passing along erroneous info that he's heard along the line and has accepted as fact?    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fluffy73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 7:00pm


Sucks being proven wrong, doesn't it? LOL
I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2014 at 9:00pm
I helped rewire a Jeep, (1975, 232, and BID), and thats when I learned to despise the BID, and IT does have a resistance wire, I would have never believed it, but basically, the HEI is the only factory ignition that does not need resistance in the hot wire, and I owned Fords before I got my first AMC, and my 79 AMX has the original motorcraft box and thats 35 years old. Ive had good luck with my HEIs, and Motorcrafts,   your mileage may vary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/25/2014 at 7:48am
And the above is from what? 
And what is it that is going to be proved?

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