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Borg Warner Transmission 74 DJ5 Help |
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Inanity71 
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Joined: May/22/2018 Location: Modesto, CA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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 Topic: Borg Warner Transmission 74 DJ5 HelpPosted: May/22/2018 at 9:35pm |
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Was trying to get my DJ5 back on the road. Was trying to find out what this Borg Transmission actually is? Where to get parts? What vehicles had the same transmission as this. Maybe something else easier to find to bolt up to my inline 232. Has serial 21453. Corp number 5962713. Div number 10-03-000-057. Having a hard time finding or pricing out a rebuild kit. I found a 65 Marlin with a V8 or a 74 matador with a 232. That both have transmissions. Just anxious to drive it again and I have metal shavings in my pan. Thanks for any information. Much appreciated.
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farna
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Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19675 |
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Posted: May/26/2018 at 9:31am |
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That has to be a M-43 Borg-Warner. That was the last one used by AMC with the six. Northwest Transmission Parts has rebuild kits. All the M-3x and M-4x trannys use the same rebuild kit. There are some differences in the number and type of clutches used, but that's about it. The Jeep DJs used the BW tranny for a few years after AMC stopped. I think 74 or 65 was the last year, but you could have an earlier engine and trans swapped in. The 72+ AMC car (and other Jeep) sixes used a larger bell housing and Chrysler based auto trannys. You'd have to swap motor and trans to use one of those. The 71 and earlier AMC six used a smaller bell housing/different bolt pattern.
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Frank Swygert
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jpnjim
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Joined: Nov/25/2007 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 2752 |
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Posted: May/26/2018 at 10:18am |
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This is very interesting!
My understanding has always been: AMC L6's had a unique bellhousing pattern from 196x (<- early 60's) to 1971 AMC V8's used a larger, different pattern during this same time period. All AMC L'6's changed to the larger AMC V8 bolt pattern in 1972 when Chrysler Automatic Transmissions came into use. It makes total sence that the DJ's built for the US Government would be slow to adopt this change and could continue using the BW Transmissions (and small pattern L6's) for some time afterwards. ^Until the contract was changed to enable the upgrade, or until the source of small pattern L6's and BW auto's ran out. I have some old DJ service manuals *somewhere*, this info makes me want to go through them and see if any hints were given as to if the change did happen later, and when it happened. Thanks Farna! And good luck to the OP! |
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71 P-code 4spd Javelin/AMX
some Jeeps and some Fords |
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Inanity71
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Joined: May/22/2018 Location: Modesto, CA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Posted: May/26/2018 at 11:03am |
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It is strange. I haven't had a moment to just clean the filter out for now and I was going to make a gasket. Just going to see if it is clogged. After looking at the stuff in the pan it may be shavings from the magnet that was placed in the pan that was flopping around. I haven't rebuilt a transmission before but might as well learn now. It is really a neat simple set up. Wanted to get some life out of it. I thank you for the info.
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farna
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Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19675 |
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Posted: May/26/2018 at 2:55pm |
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It's a relatively easy auto trans to rebuild. I've done it. There is a trick or two, but an get to that if needed. For now just clean the pan and adjust the bands. You could just get a seal kit from Northwest as well. The seals in the servos dry up and crack, and wear, causing leaks which don't hold the bands very tight. Seals on the shaft are different and hold up a lot better. Easy enough to change the servo seals and just clean the valve body with the trans in the car -- if you have a service manual. I've revived a few that sat a long time just by cleaning the valve body.
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Frank Swygert
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amcenthusiast
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Joined: Jul/02/2012 Location: SW Atlanta GA Status: Offline Points: 1778 |
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Posted: May/27/2018 at 9:37am |
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The metal shavings in the pan most likely means the unit needs new frictions and steels in the clutch drums -most likely cause for this is running the unit low on fluid... typically caused by a leaking gasket or seal... (= never let them run low on fluid!)
Alto's makes high performance Red Eagle frictions and Kolene steels for this unit? http://www.altousa.com/images/uploads/Alto2011_website.pdf page 264 (the 'frictions' in the 'clutch drums' are the 'wear component' -think of them like disc brake shoes on your car's hydraulic brake system (and the 'steels' are like the disc brake rotors)) -Volvo built an excellent reputation for durability using this same auto trans in their cars during the seventies -This unit compares well to smaller aluminum case Ford C4 and features a smaller diameter/lighter weight rotating assembly for lower parasitic loss/moment of inertia. ...basically 'dirt cheap' to DIY rebuild yourself: -this may be one of the easiest automatic transmissions to learn how to rebuild & the same basic mechanical concepts apply to nearly all other auto trans units feel free to contact me for more info through links on my website posted below |
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443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc
XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
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Ollie
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Joined: Sep/17/2012 Location: Brandon, MS Status: Offline Points: 2803 |
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Posted: May/27/2018 at 4:57pm |
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My 74 DJ has a 727. Are you sure it is a Borg Warner? What side is your starter on? (Looking from the radiator to the rear ) Right or left? Right= Borg Warner Left= Mopar 727
Both are rebuildable Having AMC Fun, Ollie |
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1966 American Convertible -- "The Rambler"..SOLD
1974 Postal Jeep -- "Rapid Delivery"...SOLD 1969 Rambler 220 post car--"Road Warrior" 1989 Jeep Comanche Pioneer, 4.0L, auto, 2wd |
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amcenthusiast
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Joined: Jul/02/2012 Location: SW Atlanta GA Status: Offline Points: 1778 |
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Posted: May/28/2018 at 8:51am |
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IMO; no, you don't want to swap that that sweet little auto trans out for another, seemingly 'better', or 'more popular' unit.
Despite what general AMCer consensus would say ~that it's weak and lacks durability, never mind that maligned opinion; the bad reputation traces to a complex lengthy explanation dealing with much comparison of designs and history... which ultimately, would reveal a well designed light duty automatic transmission that was used in a wide variety of many other vehicles. Hence, yes it was popular in it's day. No it was not a revolutionary design, rather, as a smaller updated version of the venerable "Ford-O-Matic" it was altogether mechanically conventional, except for it's neatly done die cast aluminum case construction. The lengthy explanation that would presumably lift the BW M35-44 units out of their hole of despicable shame and condemnation would not circumnavigate the many unsuccessful 'overly complex' automatic transmissions designed by General Motors in the early sixties and prove Chrysler was not a leader of US automatic transmission design and manufacturing until they finally 'got it right' and solved the 727's input shaft endplay problem around 1970. The explanation would reveal Ford, with their plan using the Warner Gear designed Ford-O-Matic units as a true leader in US automatic transmission history and prove Chrysler and GM were lagging behind with trouble-prone awkward or technically inferior designs. (which makes American Motor's choice to use the Warner Gear iron case M8-12 and BW aluminum case T35-44 units look smart*) *NOTE: I'm well aware my opinion my not jive with popular consensus (!) ...almost unbelievable GM continued to use the technologically ancient 'Hydromatic' until '64... (that's where that old saying 'put it in 'R' for 'race'' comes from! -from the weird shift selector positions on those cars!) ~anyway~ My advice? Get familiar with eBay and... -Get a '69-'71 AMC TSM to help you with repairing your DJ (pic from my '71 AMC TSM):  -And get a similar Chiltons Repair Manual, for AMC cars from those same years. You may find local help by contacting your nearest AMC club & you may find that club by visiting the AMO website = there may be someone in a local car club who knows someone who favors & rebuilds the AMC auto trans units; never know until you try? Parts? ...you'll need to try searching eBay using different names for the trans (play the old 'name game') like 'Jaguar Borg Warner transmission rebuild kit', or 'Volvo BW auto trans', 'Rambler BW35' etc. ...you'll find it though, because it was in fact a popular transmission used by many automakers. Looking on eBay I found this rebuild kit (looks correct): https://www.ebay.com/itm/BW35-T35-TRANSMISSION-OVERHAUL-KIT-AMC-RAMBLER-3-SPEED-AUTOMATIC-1962-71/152916212682?hash=item239a843bca:g:Ju4AAOSw3ZRY9Uv6 Pretty good/better than average rebuild article on this trans here: http://theamcjavelinproject.com/index.php?p=1_22_1-Transmission For a lot more auto trans info and familiarization you might enjoy this website: http://www.charlietranny.com/BWT35.htm |
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443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc
XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19675 |
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Posted: May/29/2018 at 6:29am |
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The only people to have real issues with the BW units are race guys. There aren't any beef-up parts now, and there weren't many "back in the day" either. That and those having them rebuilt have a hard time finding anyone who knows anything about them. Instead of RTFM (if they even HAVE a manual that covers them...) the newer rebuild shops just get a kit and put it in, treating it like any other auto. They do have their nuances, like any other auto trans. Odd that you mention Ford as being an early leader, amcenthusiasts, since the early Ford auto IS a Borg-Warner!! Ford didn't want everyone to know that, and BW complied. The M8 and for FX and MX trannys are virtually the same. The FX and MX were BW designed, the FMX is a combination of the two earlier units and I THINK was modified by Ford, but still adheres to the BW design due to licensing. All I know for sure is that the deal with BW was that Ford would buy a percentage of their production from BW for a period of time (I think it was 50% for 5 years, but just going from memory so that might not be right). So it was really BW in the forefront of auto trans technology, not Ford. The M-11/12 have little in common with the M8 and Ford trannys except the rotating assembly. Valve body is a totally different design.
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Frank Swygert
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