TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Electric Water Pump Regulation
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Electric Water Pump Regulation

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Message
Lyle View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/17/2014
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 772
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2017 at 8:38am
Ok, I have to agree with Frank on most of these points but if you are going to control a higher flow pump to a narrow control range then the industrial solution is a control valve. There is this:
http://www.melling.com/OEM/Products/Temperature-Valves
I don't know the application or cost but this is your best "complete" control solution.
I was thinking of the Taurus control system and a relay turning the pump on and off but that would be a lot of cycling on the pump and that may not be best for engine temperature control though the entire block. The control valve would give constant flow and avoid the problems of a restrictor (orifice) if temperature goes too high or low. 
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19676
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2017 at 4:34pm
From what I can tell the Melling "Temperature Control Valve" is merely an electronic thermostat. You get more precise control because the computer can determine when to open or close it, and there is no ramp-up -- it appears to be all the way open or all the way closed (the square form of the graph). That won't really give better temp control at all. It will allow a faster warm-up, which will reduce emissions a bit.

More interesting is the clutch water pump. An electric clutch to turn the pump off and on by computer. Shouldn't be too hard to make an adapter plate if a suitable size and shape pump can be found, convert to an old engine!

In both cases, what makes them work well for precise temperature control is the COMPUTER SOFTWARE -- or computer control. That's the point TomJ is making. To get precise control you have to have  precise controller. If you're not going to do that you can make some improvement to the old system, but not much. There is a reason no one uses an electric pump on street cars!

Main reason is reliability. A water pump motor should have more load and draw more power than a fan motor, and it will cycle on and off a lot more. The fan cycles off most of the time during cruising when there is a lot of air flow through the radiator. A pump motor would constantly cycle on and off. Might be short on time due to more air flow, but after a minute or two with NO water circulation at all it would have to cycle on for 30 seconds or so to cool the motor back down. Something like a 120 second off/45 second on cycle even while cruising... maybe more (less time off and on, faster cycling) in city traffic. That is a lot of relay cycling!

With computer control I'd go with the pump like TomJ did instead of an electric t-stat (temp control valve). You would get a little convection flow through the radiator and engine all the time (the early Renaults with the radiator in back and little hood used convection for all flow -- no pump!), and the pump can be variable speed.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 12:15am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

What would happen if you used a 165 off/180 on temp switch is the pump would be turning on and off a lot... run 10-15 seconds, turn off 30-60, then back on 10-15, etc. -- with the on/off cycles changing due to outside temp and how hard the engine was running.

it wont work; it will oscillate. the engine warms to your 180. pump comes on. hot coolant is exchanged for colder. the pump goes off when the sensor sees 165, but now there's more colder coolant in the head, and the temperature keeps dropping, well past 165.

you need to *anticipate* the overshoot, by watching the rate-of-change of temperature. 

this is why i said "you won't believe me..." here's the fundamental industrial control algorithm that's the basis for my, and every other, closed-loop feedback control system. i run two PID loops (pump, fan), gain scheduling, and a separate circulation pump.


the circ pump would be an improvement in ANY cooling system! the '65 195.6 OHV has it with the three-legged water pump, and the 81-up sixes with the full-time-flow heaters do too. heaters with a coolant valve (instead of a flapper to mix hot/cold air) don't circulate. it equalizes the head and block and also makes the sensor response more rational.  the circ pump is just a Bosch "heater booster pump", 3/4" in and out, draws a couple amps max.


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 12:20am
for an analogy on how/why the complexity of the electronic system is, vs. the simple old pump and thermostat, consider how basically simple a carburetor is -- and how insanely complex good EFI is. it took 20 years, or more, for EFI to be really usable. there's a lot of subtlety and complexity hidden in that chunk of metal.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
Bandana View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut
Avatar

Joined: Jul/26/2016
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 7:25am
Lots of great thoughts here guys, thanks for sharing them. My problem is that my cooling system cools too well. The electric pump runs continuously and is wide open with no restrictor, and of course has no bypass. My concerned with any type of control system using my current hardware is that it involves something telling my system run full on or full off, with nothing in between. The pump would constantly cycle on and off and the temp range would constantly swing. A control valve would be the best way to address the issue, which in essence is what a thermostat and bypass does. it regulates the flow according to need. While adding a variable speed drive on the pump or a control valve and PID controller may be the most precise solution I want to stay simple. Restricter plates are a simple solution but are limited to a narrow temperature range. I am thinking of trying a drilled thermostat? Stewart makes a predrilled t-stat that has three 3/16" holes drilled in the center piece. It seems to me that this might allow for some degree of regulation since the valve will still open and close in proportion to the engine temperature like any other t-stat but has the holes to act as a bypass when the valve is closed? Anyone ever tried them? Any one know if the AMC OEM t-stat is the same size as a GM, Ford or Mopar?

Back to Top
Lyle View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/17/2014
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 772
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 8:06am
Have a look at these:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/product-line/milodon-high-flow-thermostats
About 30% more flow then stock.


Back to Top
Bandana View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut
Avatar

Joined: Jul/26/2016
Location: NC
Status: Offline
Points: 473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bandana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Lyle Lyle wrote:

Have a look at these:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/search/product-line/milodon-high-flow-thermostats
About 30% more flow then stock.


Thanks for the link but while these may flow more they do not provide any bypass to eliminate deadheading and vacuum cavitation. These Stewart's are what I was referring to that have holes in them for bypass.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/emp-300
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19676
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2017 at 6:28pm
You could just drill an AMC t-stat, of course. If you're constantly running the pump you may as well leave the belt on it. There is a bit of efficiency loss running the electric motor from the alternator. Better to run the pump directly if it's going to be constantly on. There is some temp swing even in a stock system -- as much as 20-30 degrees in some cases. I can see my temp gauge drop 10 degrees when the t-stat opens. The sensors and gauges aren't particularly fast either. It won't hurt to have a 20-30 degree swing in temp. You gain a little power and mileage from an electric fan because it's not pulling all the time, not because it's electric. A clutch fan gives you back a little as well, though you're still turning the mass of the clutch and fan hub, so not as efficient as an electric fan. If the electric fan was constantly on, there would be little to no gain, as the alternator is working harder and dragging just about as much as the fan would.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 3.047 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or