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According to Wikipedia

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Snotty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/07/2016 at 11:45am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

Wikipedia is not necessarily a "collection of opinions". On some subjects it obviously is, but on most that have hard facts available there are people with those facts that monitor the articles. I monitor several of the AMC related articles and have upon occasion made corrections or clarifications, but I try not to "bully" anyone who makes changes. Some people seem to claim "ownership" of an article and get upset if someone adds to or changes the info. I double check when something is changed and on occasion make minor corrections or add clarifications if it doesn't seem to read very clear. A few vigilant, knowledgeable people can keep at least a factual article straight. I've only had one or two occurences where someone put things in that were obviously opinions or urban myth stated as fact. I don't think either were in AMC related articles, some old computer articles I ran across.


I understand that, and I am glad to know you peruse the articles to make corrections. (Seriously, I am glad somebody does.) But it remains a "third-person source." If you were writing a research paper and used it as one or more of your sources for your research, and I was your professor, I would really hammer you on not using first person sources, or even second person sources. Bottom line, Wikipedia is a source I never use.
Son's car: '73 Gremlin X, 401, T-10, Mopar 8.75 rear with 3.23 sure grip. My car: '70 Newport Convertible, 440 automatic
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Rambler Mexicano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Mexicano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/07/2016 at 3:27pm
I did not add the VAM specs to the Wikipedia page, but I DID add them to a VAM club page that was hosted in the now-defunct MSN Groups service. Someone took those specs and added them to the Wikipedia article. As I was able to obtain more information over the years I did add specs that were missing from the MSN site (I was still collecting VAM data back then, and still am) to the Wikipedia article and correct several aspects, such as the 1975-1976 compression ratio spec that appears as 8.5:1 in the owner's manuals but that is in fact 7.7:1 according to VAM employees I know. These compression drops were not announced due to marketing reasons.

What I DID add myself to the article from a scratch were the correct model applications for the VAM engines.

Aside from Frank, I do have contact with one person in charge of keping the AMC wikipedia articles, Christopher Ziemnowicz.

I have personally written 80%-90% of the VAM section of at least thirteen AMC model Wikipedia articles. They have been edited sereval times but I don't have a problem with that as long as the information is accurate.

Here are the links:

Mexican Rambler Six and V8

VAM Rambler American (original)

VAM Rambler Classic (original)

VAM Rambler Classic (Rebel)

VAM Javelin

VAM Rambler American (Hornet)

VAM Classic (Matador)

VAM Gremlin (original)

VAM Pacer

VAM American (Concord)

VAM Gremlin and Rally (Spirit)

VAM Lerma

AMC Straight Six Engine - VAM 252

AMC Straight Six Engine - VAM 282

As for the drop in horsepower over the years, it was mainly due to compression ratio drops (piston type and combustion chamber design) but it wasn't the only reason, the intake manifold design (steel in 71-76 and aluminum in 77-83), carburetor model (360 CFM in 1971-1974, 350 CFM in 1975-1977 and 325 CFM in 1978-1983), intake porting design and ignition type (points in 71-74 and electronic in 75-83) also influenced the finaly results.

It all started with an announcement from the Mexican government  that all gasoline engines produced in the country would have to pass emission certification, which would take effect at the beginning of the 1974 model year.

All regular production VAM 282s have the same camshaft, the VAM-engineered 266 duration degree unit introduced in 1969 for the 252. AMC's original cam was a 244 degree unit. Also, all VAM 282s have the same valve diameter (2.02 inches intake, 1.68 inches exhaust) with the only exception of the 1971-1972 units that had smaller valves. The crankshaft was also the same in all years.

The 1971-1973 282 is the most powerful because it has flat pistons, all 1974-1983 units have concave units.

Unfortunately, we still have very little info on the 1974-1976 282s. What we do know so far is the following. Through 1976 there were two combustion chamber sizes, we still don't know the actual year this practice began, I would speculate 1974 is when it started.

There was a large combustion chamber for lower compression ratio and a small combustion chamber for higher compression ratio. Exactly how much CR each version had we still don't know. I would SPECULATE that the small chamber would be a 8.5:1 compression ratio unit and the large chamber the 7.7:1 units. Like I said, I STILL have no way to prove this.

Also, we don't know what models of this period had the small chamber/higher compression and which had the large chamber/low compression. From 1974 through 1976 pretty much the only car that had the 282 was the VAM Classic (Matador). They were divided in two luxury models and one performance model. The formers being the Classic DPL (Matador sedan) and Classic Brougham (Matador Brougham coupe) while the latter was the Classic AMX (Matador X coupe). The only exceptions were the 1976 Pacer (luxury model), the 1976 American Rally (Hornet X, performance model) and the 1976 American ECD two-door (Hornet DL two-door, luxury model).

I would like to think the small chambers were used in the American Rally and Classic AMX while the large ones found use in the Classic DPL, Classic Brougham and Pacer.

Since VAM enginers told me an approximate NET horse power figure for the 1975-1976 282 would be around 120-125 units, I would like to think 120 horses go to the 7.7:1 compression ratio version and 125 to the 8.5:1 compression ratio ones.

The third generation of 282 engines came in 1977. It's main feature was a brand-new quench-type combustion chamber. It had 8.0:1 compression ratio. The 1982-1983 regular production 282s as well as the high performance 1979-1981 units got a higher compression ratio (8.5:1 instead of the 8.0:1) due to the use of a different head gasket.

Finally a new head design with plastic valve cover, smaller spark plug specification and round intake ports appeared early in 1982, which would take the regular production 282 (with the new 8.5:1 compression ratio) to no less than 135 net horse power with the standard 325 CFM Motorcaft 2150 carburetor (against the 129 net horsepower of the 1978-1981 regular production 282s).

However, we still don't know if this head design was actually tested performance-wise by VAM's engineering department since it came right at the time the economy bombed and the whole Mexican auto industry went downhill and VAM interruptd several operations.


Edited by Rambler Mexicano - Dec/07/2016 at 3:35pm
Mauricio Jordán

Cuando no se es una empresa famosa se deben hacer mejores automóviles.
- Vehículos Automotores Mexicanos S. A. de C. V.
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Ken_Parkman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/07/2016 at 3:28pm
The actual engine power did not change much, it was the rating system. The US readings in 71 and prior were gross, and not particularly controlled by any standard. They were factored depending on the manufacturer, how much he wanted to lie, maybe to make a particular race class, or to make it sound like their car was fast. For example you could buy a 350 hp 350 chev Camaro, but pity help you if you tried to race a 335 hp Mustang with a 428cj.

In 72 you can mostly believe the power numbers. It is SAE standard J607, which corrects to International Standard air, 29.92"hg and 59 F, and tested as the engine would be installed in a car with filters, exhaust, and accessories. Some manufacturers "lost" a lot of power, some not so much. In reality the engine was the same or close, the number was now right.

There was another change to J1349 sometime in the 80s(?) and that had more representative atmospheric conditions for normal use. The power numbers lost about 4%.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2016 at 12:38am
my 195.6 OHV is 138 hp -- flywheel rating. rating systems changed in the 70's or 80's. it's silly d*ck size comparisons anyways, no one drives stock cars like that. and a lot of car "specs" are taxable emphasis TAX or shipping weights. a 3000 lb actual weight car might be listed as "2800 lbs" as a way for federally regulated freight system providers a discount (since they can't by law charge less than a regulated amount per pound, they agree that the item weighs less).

and wikipedia itself -- it s avery solidly reliable source of data. exceptions are rare. no one clicks the TALK tab. i suggest to students that they look up something like "ZIONISM", highly contentious, and look at the conversations, and see how sucha controversial subject ends up being a great summation, through "balance of terror". if you see errors, correct them! wikipedia requires sources for information, and over time, errors get corrected. 

wikipedia is one of the most amazing things humans have ever produced, in any place or time in history. its complex. finding an errir doesn't condemn the project -- fix the error.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2016 at 1:20am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

The actual engine power did not change much, it was the rating system. .

That pretty much covers the answer. The question becomes to some extent what exactly was the change in the rating system and whether those noted are complete or not are open for discussion.
What I find a bit fascinating is the incredible HP rating of some of the newer engines being manufactured.
And what ever the rating system is. In some cases a rating system can be very specific to a set of circumstances that would not be seen at all in normal driving conditions.
1HP/Cu in was pretty much a rating of efficiency that was difficult to exceed for a long period of time. But in the last 10 years or so HP ratings were creeping up.
Compression ratio is one way to obtain more HP, but and there is a serious but attached, if the fuel itself will detonate or ping at a giving timing specification, then HP to be expected can not be obtained unless the fuel is capable of running the engine.
In todays computer controlled engine, timing can be varied by monitoring the pinging or detonation. When sampled, timing can be retarded to eliminate such detonation but once done, maximum HP can not be obtained.
Here in the SW, pump premium is 91 octane. In the NE it can be as high as 95 octane and not discounting racing fuel But with a high compression engine that is also blown and turbo-charged as some are, the same engine will not give the same HP on two different grades of octane premium gasoline.
My 2015 3.5L V6 Dodge Caravan with Variable Cam Shaft timing is rated very close to the HP my 390 1970 Javelin is rated at. And the way it drives there is no doubt in my mind the two engines are developing about the same HP. I am not sure of the rpm where as the torque of the 3.5L engine appears to be down at freeway speeds. But they are close. Both running on 91 OCTANE pump gas premium.
But I am almost sure that if I loaded the Van up with 95Octane premium race gas it might very well be faster than my Javelin. Unless I were to retune the Javelin something which is done automatically with the VAN.
Technology is neat.
But expensive.
Everything is some form of a trade off with money being a common denominator.
Both engines (the Javelin being modified) are capable of passing a smog test for the year of the vehicle. The Dodge does it automatically, the Javelin must be tuned to get away with it
And while the Dodge can be run on 87 Octane with out doing anything to the engine, it is obvious while driving it, the power is way down when using 87 Octane.
It de-tunes itself automatically to compensate for the reduced octane.


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80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2016 at 6:23am
The rating change explains the big drop from 1971 to 1972 (in the US.... 79/80 in Mexico, apparently). The drops that occurred later were mostly due to changing emissions standards and getting an engine design in the 60s to comply with increasing emissions restrictions without a total redesign of the head and combustion chambers. Takes a lot of R&D (money!) to do that.

AMC finally did redesign the head, when the 2.5L four was introduced. The 258 soldiered on with pretty much the same old head (with minimal changes over the years) through 1989. The 4.0L got a head update. Little known is that while the 2.5L four was essentially a shortened 4.0L, the 4.0L head was essentially a lengthened 2.5L head. Different ports (intakes were smaller than 258 but raised and with a better shape that flowed more than the old big ports with a 90 degree turn over the valve. Of course the ports were raised a bit more (on the 4.0L head, don't know about the 2.5L) for 1991 HO models. Better combustion chamber, and the center two exhaust ports were separated instead of together as on the 258.

On a different note, some schools won't allow using Wikipedia for papers, some will -- but you better have another source as well, and/or cite the Wikipedia article sources (and check them). That's always a good idea. Wikipedia does note when citations are missing/needed from an article. Of course I get to cite one of my own books as a source... but the info from that comes mostly from official AMC source material.


Edited by farna - Dec/08/2016 at 6:27am
Frank Swygert
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