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Aluminum 196 vs cast 232 ?? |
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AmericanX
AMC Fan Joined: Apr/05/2009 Location: Quebec,Canada Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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The car is not far, maybe 45min from my place.
Jeez, I would like to save this car!! This little Classic is solid like a rock with original paint all around except the front left fender. If I don't buy it the seller want to cut the floor and make a fram, put a 350 with a TH400 and a 9" rear end and drag it on the track!! I know nothing about these model, I'm an American guy! I owned several American, Javelin, Aigle, and Jeep... So these generation of Rambler is new for me. I will try to find a solution... and will save this Classic! |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19612 |
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The only bolt-in engine will be the iron 196. If the head is good on the AL engine, and the block, it's salvageable. Unless you have heavy rust on the parts like the crank pins they can be polished or turned and run. The 196 is an expensive engine to build now though!
You can get a 232 torque converter (IIRC the ring gear is made onto the converter) and run the trans you have. It's an M-8. You can run the trans from behind the 232. It's an M-37 or M-40. IF the splines are the same as the 61 M-8 (I doubt it) and the length is the same the M-8 output shaft housing may fit the M-37/40, but again, I doubt you'll be that lucky. The torque converter should fit, but I can't guarantee it will. The main problem is mounting the engine. Pre 63 Classics used a four point mounting system, two on the bell housing, two on front of the engine. You can bolt a piece on each side to use the forward mounts if using the original trans. Takes some ingenuity and fab work, but can be done. A universal engine crossmember for a SBC can be modified and used. If changing the trans you'll need to make (or use a universal) trans crossmember also. Getting rid of the torque tube means building a rear suspension and swapping axles -- Ford Ranger axle and 36"+ ladder bars using the original springs and seats and panhard rod is the easiest way to go. Engine length is also a issue, as pointed out. Move the radiator forward by swapping mounts left to right -- gains at least an inch. Then you will need a 65 American 232 or a 72+ CJ-5 (NOT CJ-7!!) water pump and pulley. That gains at least another inch. IIRC between the short water pump and moving the radiator you get the room you need, but only just! There will be about 1/4" between the engine fan and radiator. You might need to run a Flex-A-Lite nylon fan for a little added clearance. So it's not a drop-in swap, but it's not terribly difficult either. You might want to consider a modern EFI V-6 or V-8 swap. Not popular on here, but then his is an older Rambler, so you won't get a lot of flack about that since it's not a popular collector car (even amongst AMC people!) and it's as much work to change to a more modern AMC engine. |
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Frank Swygert
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7522 |
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i personally installed a 1970 232ci six into a 1963 classic that had an aluminum six in front of a Flash-O-Matic. it will definitely bolt to the trans no problem. from memory, here are the issues i had:
* you must get a 1964-up six front cross member. the motor mount pads have one hole, you'll have a tdrill a second hole for the mount stud, i think 1" back. mine was rock-solid for 23 years, it's easy and safe. * the radiator didn't fit. i cut out the sheetmetal below it, but a short radiator would fit too. * throttle linkage, make your own or scrounge a 232 linkage. * trans kickdown i think just bolted on. * some minor wiring issues. * AMC used over 9000 different water pump shaft lengths, and 9000 different water pump pulleys. OK, maybe less than 9000, but it willl seem like 9000 when you have the wrong one. you want SHORT. i hav not personally owned a running aluminum 195.6 ohv, but i run an iron one, and did a lot of researh... you will need to be rich *AND* extremely talented to run one in 2014 with any degree of reliabbility. it was a crap design. solid maintenance would make them last, but that wasn't popular through the 1960's, and worse, 1970's, when these were all "just old cars". they're not COrvettes, they were given to high school kids. caveat emptor. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19612 |
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LOL!!! There are like 3-4 different water pumps for the 196. Two different shaft lengths, three different bodies not counting the aluminum engine (which had a different pump from the cast iron, but only ONE of those!). With the consolidation of parts books by monkeys who hadn't a clue, you may not get the right one the first couple times. I got the long shaft first, then the short shaft with the heater nipple in the wrong place, then an aluminum model pump ("it was the only other part number we had"), then just sent mine off to be rebuilt. That was the year I decided I had to have a car with at least a 232, because 196 parts were just too hard to find for a daily driver that might have to go half way across the country (I was USAF at the time... around 1997?).
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Frank Swygert
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aarong
AMC Apprentice Joined: Apr/11/2012 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 210 |
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i was able to find a refurbished water pump for my 1963 aluminum 195.6 pretty easily. i even found a new head gasket on ebay (of course i bought it).
the engine runs so great for its terrible reputation that i dont want to swap it with any other engine. but it seems to have gotten a bad rap so im buying parts just in case something happens.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19612 |
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It got a bad reputation for two reasons:
1) Most anti-freeze at the time wasn't compatible with aluminum and would cause (or just allow) the aluminum to corrode, causing water jacket and head gasket sealing issues. 2) It's still the old 195.6 design, the block was just modified to allow die casting. Head is different but the exact same design. So the head bolts will eventually loosen just like on its cast iron brother. Only when the head gets loose on the AL engine, the bores can warp out of place and the head will NEVER seal again. So it's more important to torque the head every other year or every 10-12K miles. The TSM says check at 8K, but from years of driving the iron version 12-15K is enough to prevent blowing a head gasket. I'd be a bit more diligent with the AL version and keep it at 10K or so. |
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Frank Swygert
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