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Internal oil line

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 7:27am
It's been my experience that true race drivers, professionals, are among the most careful and courteous on the road.  They save their "agression" for the track, but then, they still follow rules......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebelmachineguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 8:17am
I'm not a true race driver. I wish I was but I live way too far away from any track to ever have become a regular.

I've supported efforts to build a track in my area and am still pushing for it since I see it as a way to end or at least greatly reduce the modern style street racing. If there were a track anywhere in my area I'd be on it. Even better, I'd love to race Baja style.

Here in Canada we have the Targa but it's held in Newfoundland. Way out of my financial league right now or I'd be in that too. Then there's that race in Nevada where you go flat out. I'd do that as well. Meanwhile, I still want to be ready to participate should the occasion present itself without having to start all over with something I've already paid for once.

Bear in mind that AMC built Rebel Machines, SC/Ramblers, SC/360 Hornets, AMXs and Javelins for the street racing crowds of the day. Most AMC buyers didn't participate but thousands did. To believe otherwise is delusional.

What has that got to do with building an engine to do a specific job anyway? I'm just trying to get a point across.

Besides, despite what I said earlier, I've retired from my actual street racing days. But I still want my engine to be able to do what it was supposed to be able to do without having to worry about it if I get on it at a cruise night.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebelmachineguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 9:04am
Originally posted by tyrodtom tyrodtom wrote:

   There's a lot of difference between a circle track pan, road race and drag race oil pan.
The CT a RR pans have extra capacity but no extra depth, because of ground clearance, they have kickouts on the side or sides, that keeps the oil from just climbing up the sides of the oil pan and the block skirts in sharp turns. Just a deeper sump would make little or no difference in a sharp turn. neither would more oil in a long substained turn.
   This is something i'm going to encounter myself if I ever finish my circle track Hornet. I'm getting a kit from Speedway Motors, it's a kickout sump, with baffles and doors you add to the bottom of a stock pan, i'll weld it up myself.
  The engine i've now got in my J10 was origionally meant for my Hornet, but i'm glad I ended up putting it in my Jeep. I installed the gallery oil line years ago, but it's always had oil pressure problems after about 20 seconds over 4000 rpm. I've tried running the extra Qt, and that only adds maybe another 5 seconds. I've also added the Bulltear midplate and relieved gears, no help. So i've come to the conclusion i've mainly got oil return problems and maybe loose rod clearances. 
 


All the stuff I wrote finally ended up generating this reply which looks like it's going down the right track.

It's amazing how extreme I have to sound to get  a straight answer.

As far as being an accident waiting to happen, no way. I never overdrive the capability of my car or my field of vision. I drive as any race car driver would and I don't take chances. I am never the fastest on the road since I don't need tickets. Besides, 30 mph here is good enough now for your car to be seized. Don't want that either.

Then there is new legislation that lists stunt driving as an offence that could cost you your car. You can lose your car even if you are in a parking lot doing nothing - on suspicion of going to race. It's so bad I wrote a book about it. So the chances of me doing anything extreme are ancient history. Besides I retired from that years ago. I still have the newspaper article announcing my retirement from street racing. So don't worry you're safe.

Besides that, I know intimately what my car can do from plenty of practice. I know what its limits are.

When you are racing at the track, you know that over time, you get really good at what you do. You couldn't take someone off the street, stick them in your car and not expect to have a serious mishap. Same here.

Make no mistake. My engine is a beautifully built engine and people remark on it all the time. It would suit literally everyone but me.

Based on what I'm reading, it looks like some effort has to be expended on the oil pan which is no part of what Active Engines was asked to do.

So how do I figure out flow patterns within the pan? Does the rate of flow within the engine need to slow down? Or does maybe the oil pump need a different gearing?

If the oil is being sucked up way too fast for gravity to drive it back into the pan, there has to be a way to slow it down or all engines would have this problem. What overcomes this in other engines?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tyrodtom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 10:18am

   Most of my experience with this problem comes from SBCs of course, they have the problem too, but not to the degree AMCs appear to.  The Chevy has been circle track raced so long the solution was long ago sorted out.  The lower the bank angle of the track is, the more severe the problem is.

   There isn't any one solution.  A big part of the solution is enlarging and smoothing the oil drainback holes in the head and cam gallery area, removing casting flash from both that slow drainback, some paint the inside of the head and cam gallery with Glyptal, a thick red paint meant for electrical motors, to aid drainback. Drainback problems for the SBC is mainly in the head area, not the cam gallery. Some of the solution in decreasing oil flow to the topside, but this has to be approached with caution.
   If you'll look at a circle track or road race oil pan you'll see they're radically different from a stock or deepsump pan.  They've got horizontial additions to the side of the sump.
  Just think if while you've got your engine on a engine stand, you turn it on it's side. Will a deep sump oil pan, or a extra qt. of oil change what will happen to the oil pickup in the pan?
When you have the car in a long, fast, steep turn the oil in the pan is almost doing the same thing as when you turn the engine on it's side. The side sumps on RR and CT pans greatly slow that oil sliding up the side of the pan, plus there's boxes built around the oil pickup, with doors on it that only open inward.
  I'm going to make my own oil pan by bolting a stock pan to a trash block I have, cutting the sump off, and welding on the horizontal sump and drainback box, while it's still bolted on the old block to make sure I don't distort the pan.
  I would work on improving oil drainback first, before thinking about restricting oil to the topside. Even though drainback solutions require completely getting back into the engine.   They make lifters or pushrods that slow the flow to the topside. I've even heard of putting pipe cleaners inside the pushrods, but I don't like that idea, I keep thinging of the pipe cleaners coming apart, and then you've only got two little pieces of wire inside the pushrod, being pushed against the rocker arm.
  There's several things that could be out of specs that could be casing the engine to put too much oil topside, cam bearings, lifter bore clearances.
  Myself i'm a little reluctant to restrick oil flow to the topside, knowing how important good oilflow is to the life of the valvesprings and rocker arms. Most of the engine failures I see in circle track cars have their root in valvetrain failures.
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebelmachineguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 10:34am
It would be instructive to see how the internals were set up in Mark Donohue's Matador - particularly the oil pan.

In a road race, you aren't on banked curves going flat out for extended periods of time. So the cure for an engine for that application would likely not have to be as radical.

It seems to me that horizontal baffles low down on each side of the pan would stop the oil in the pan from sliding up the walls of the pan and then maybe one on each side of the oil pick up running lengthways.

I've seen external oil lines too and wondered if they work to get the oil from the top to the bottom of the engine and if so, what happens to the parts that should have seen that oil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poormansMACHINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/29/2008 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Rebelmachineguy Rebelmachineguy wrote:



I've seen external oil lines too and wondered if they work to get the oil from the top to the bottom of the engine and if so, what happens to the parts that should have seen that oil?

The parts needing the oil would have seen it already. Generally the lines ran from the valve covers to the pan. The uper valve train isn't intended to operate submerged.
Use push rods with smaller feed holes and you shouldn't be flooding the covers via the rockers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dsm6678 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/27/2015 at 9:50pm
I know this post is old but I was reading about the 1970 penske donohue racing team  that the destroked 360 trans am engines were having a problem with the rear main bearing failing due to an oiling issue for the rear main bearing at sustained high rpm use.   I also read that daily driver cars  for public use would not have this problem since they would not be running sustained high rpm's..
 
Anyway back in 1998  I was driving my 73 amx equiped with a 360 back from the shore at night and I wanted to make good time (about a 50 mile drive) so I was cruising at 90 mph but  I planned 100mph most of the way but I was worried about going so fast for so long so i cut it down to 90mph
 
 
Anyway It was like 3am so not much was on the highway so I was doing 90mph for a good solid 10 minutes. So I look over my passenger's  passed out body and I see something to my right (I was in the fast lane lol). I said to myself o no it's a cop!?  So I slowly look over and what do I see  other than my friend passed out in the passenger seat of my javelin is a 1983 to 1993 style corvette!!!! I was like where the heck did he come from and oh yea it's game time!!!!!   So the corvette driver and I  started messing around and the speed got greater and greater then we punched it. So it was neck to neck but of course the corvette has an astronomical top speed (depending on gearing) but for over a solid 5 minutes I never dropped below 115mph hitting a top speed in the Javelin of 143mph all stock engine with 135,000 miles  . After that me and the vette driver  were crusing at like 120mph  for a long time I mean minutes a few for sure !
 
Don't want to get into details but things got messy wish I could go back and not do what I did  but I was lucky nothing happend other then the rear main bearing failure in the amc 360.   Anyway I slid across the highway (slid 3 lanes)at about 135mph between  3 cars and I got in front of the vette it was scary but I  won the takeoff from 115mph to 135mph.
 
So the end is I am cruising at 133mph with the vette but the vette is starting to pull and he is going faster and faster but now my car can't break 133mph  with the gas peddle flored the car is losing speed like 128 125 120  so I let off the gas and then I hear the engine noise so I start to high beam the corvette but he just kept going (I wanted him to get me a tow truck maybe he had a car phone !!! (( Don't laugh My friend had a working one in his 86 corvette at the time)) We had no cell phones, not to many people did) .
 
So I slow down to like 60mph and the noise is bad then I slow down to like 25 and it's bad. So I decide to just give up on making it home so I don't completly blow up the engine and pull over and shut it down. The temp guage kept rising after I shut the engine off. I put the key to the on position to monitor the temp. Then the radiator cap let's loose oh man..
 
I get towed home and find that the rear main bearing has failed and the connecting rod broke. I guess I was lucky that I was able to save the engine  or more lucky that worse did not  happen..
 
Anyway I won't be doing that driving anymore but seems there is a problem with the oiling of the rear main bearing at sustained high rpm's with the amc v8's 1970 and up
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