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1970 amc javelin disc brake conversion

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3b-amcya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3b-amcya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/07/2020 at 4:24pm
Thanks for the quick reply.  I believe with Scarebird you need to machine the drum hubs down to fit the stock rotors.  Then you can basically use the calipers, etc that I already have, correct?  I think I have almost everything minus the conversion bracket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/07/2020 at 10:13pm
Scarebird tweaks the design over time, actually improving it. At the time I got mine, yers, you had to turn *some* hubs for clearance of the rotor hat. It was close. I was lucky, I had a friend with a lathe.

At that time at least, he sold hubs that fit. 

Scarebird would be the first place I'd go, with stock type cast iron master cyls. I dont' see how the newer Willwood stuff is all that great. I've heard stories of anodized bores, etc. Stock-type cast iron master cyls are as reliable as anything, and $25 new is hard to argue with.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2020 at 6:38am
The current Scarebird setup uses a Toyota Previa hat type rotor. The drum hubs need a little turned off the outer edge (of must hubs). It can be done on a brake lathe, only needs a little off.

TSM is building a setup similar to the Scarebird setup. Doesn't say what hat type rotor they are using (looks like it might be a 2WD Jeep XJ rotor?), but those are definitely GM calipers.

Willwood and Aerospace Components make a front disc setup. I prefer the Aerospace, but both are good from what I hear. They don't mention what spindle to use.

All except 75-78 AMCs use the same spindle dimensions for drum and disc brakes (same bearings and space between bearings). The difference in the spindles is the thickness of the base, holding the psindle further out from the rotor. There are at least three thicknesses: narrow drums (Americans and older six cylinder big cars, maybe six cylinder 60s Javelins -- 2" or narrower), wide drums (mostly V-8 cars, 2.25" or wider drums), and 1971-74/79-83 disc brakes. There may be more than one base for disc brakes.

The point is you can use drum spindles for disc brakes. You just need to install everything and determine how much further out you need the spindle, then use grade 8 washers (grade 8 washers are hard and won't deform under pressure, and are uniform thickness) and longer bolts (grade 5 are stock, use 5 or 8) to set the spindle out. Or make a spacer plate if you need 1/4" or more, though washers will work fine and be just as strong as a spacer. Once torqued down the washers act the same as a solid mass would.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3b-amcya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2020 at 7:28am
Ok thanks to both tomj & farna.  I see Scarebird has 2 options using the 10" (Previa) and 12" disc options "big brake".  It's going in a 70 Javelin, currently 304 but soon to be 390 car.  I should probably go with the larger diameter and see if stock rotors will work.  I also have a dual master cyl and re-built booster.  Should be all ready to go - do you agree?

Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2020 at 5:44am
The bigger brakes won't hurt, but the standard set is more than adequate even for a 390 car -- assuming normal street use (and even an occasional run down the strip). The only time you really need bigger brakes is if you are road racing or maybe live in a mountainous area where you're using the brakes a lot, or towing trailers without brakes. The stock 79-83 rotors are 10.82" in diameter, right between the Previa and Sportrac (four cylinder rotors were 10.27", but also thinner). That might be driving your decision for the 12" brakes, which is understandable. That and the hubs need to be turned down with the Sportrac rotors.

I assume you meant stock SPINDLES, not ROTORS. Stock 79-83 AMC rotors are just over 1" smaller in diameter, which will set the rotor about 1/2" too high. Might still work, technically, but with that much of the pad not contacting the rotor you would lose braking power.


Edited by farna - Nov/10/2020 at 5:51am
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2020 at 9:00am
Let me add to farna's response.

If the pads are not fully over the rotor, at some point during pad wear, the exposed ends of the pads will touch each other and there will be no brakes, depending on rotor thickness.
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/11/2020 at 6:14am
Good point! Most rotors are thick enough this isn't an issue, but all aren't...
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3b-amcya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/11/2020 at 7:23am
Got it thanks to both of you.  Yes Scarebird replied and they do not accept the stock rotors & calipers with their bracket.  Just clicked in my head ... they are basically using the Previa & Sportrac solutions that are listed on the website.  I thought I could get away with re-using some parts that are still good.  As you can probably tell by now I'm a weekend mechanic, self-taught.  Luckily I have good people around me to assist once I get this project started.

I'm still curious to know if anyone has used TSM.  Similar solution but again most likely need to go with their calipers to match the bracket.  The rotor they sell is 11.25" so it is much closer to stock.  They also have a rear disc brake conversation and there is good feedback on that here from the AMC community.

https://www.tsmmfg.net/amc-complete-front-disc-brake-kit-1390.html

BTW this forum is great and I don't use it or contribute enough ... will do in the future.  Thanks again!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/12/2020 at 6:03am
I've not used the TSM setup, but it's essentially the same as the Scarebird, they just use different parts.
Brakes aren't really all that complicated. They are just a hydraulic cylinder (the caliper piston) that squeezes a piece of steel (the rotor). The caliper bracket just has to center the caliper over the rotor and mount it out from the center the correct amount. Except for the bleeder screw the caliper can be mounted in any clock position around the rotor. Due to the way the mounts are made (and bleeder location) that essentially means it's either mounted in about the 2 o-clock or 10 o-clock positions -- in front or in back of the rotor. Which doesn't matter, leverage forces are the same (around the spindle). You can swap position easily -- just swap the bracket from the left side to the right side. I've done that using stock setups from a 79-83 Concord/Spirit on a 63 American.

SIZING everything on the hydraulic side gets a bit more complicated, as you need a master cylinder that supplies enough fluid at enough pressure for the size of the caliper. You need to move enough volume at enough pressure. You also need adequate pad area. A lot can be fudged in those areas, and a little more is better than not enough. The 10" rotor uses about the same pad area as the 12" -- the the main gain is that a larger rotor will dissipate heat faster than a smaller one.

When dealing with an entire brake system, there also needs to be some balance between the front and rear brakes. One mistake people make is upgrading the rear brakes when they upgrade the fronts. You don't need more rear braking power if you increase front braking power -- it's usually just the opposite. When you increase front brake power you also increase weight transfer to the front, so the rear brakes actually do a bit less work, and may lock up faster -- especially if you increase rear brake power. That's why proportioning valves are sometimes used, but those fell out of use with some OEMs as they learned to just install the correct size wheel cylinders to match brake bias front to rear. In some years the proportioning valve made more monetary sense. Same parts can be used for the rear in many cars -- the valve took care of balancing rather than brake size, or rather made sizing of the rears a bit more flexible.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3b-amcya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/14/2020 at 7:40am
Thanks Farna and sorry for the delayed post.  Really good explanation on the setup and especially when deciding to do rear brakes, if at all.  I will let you know the final decision.  Still up in the air about using the aftermarket bracket.  APD has an upgrade kit with original spindles and I may still be able to work with them on using my rotors & calipers ... we'll see.

Thank again.
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