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Frankenstein front pump??? |
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69 ambassador 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/22/2009 Location: Peoria, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3539 |
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Posted: Nov/21/2014 at 8:33pm |
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Here's a little tid bit. Today I had a FMX front pump sitting on the bench next to a M-12 pump housing and thought what if??
What if I try to put the gears from a FMX in the B/W housing. Our tab drive pumps are usually worn at the drive tabs and need grinding and welding to make usable again. Good ones are hard to find and FMX stuff is easy and plentufull.
No go- The FMX outer annular gear is larger and wont fit. The inner driven gear fits fine but cannot be combined with the B/W gear because the FMX is straight cut and won't mesh.
But wait; There's more.
What if the B/W stator support fits the FMX pump housing. Yep, perfect fit. The FMX has the double "D" internal drive like most Fords and much more availabity on good pump gears. When I get the chance I'll do more checking but it looks like all that would be needed to work this is a rebuilt M11/12 converter with a FMX drive hub.
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Steve Brown
Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
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PlazinJavelin
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/02/2008 Location: Atlanta USA Status: Offline Points: 2703 |
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Any pictures of your puzzle pieces for the transmission illiterate like me?
I think I get the idea of the stator in the FMX pump. Are those M12 parts getting scarce?
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69 ambassador 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/22/2009 Location: Peoria, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3539 |
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Good front pumps are geting scarce. There are no rebuilt pumps or hard parts available like planetaries or sprags available. The rear output shaft bushings and certain thrust washers are soon going to have to be found a substitute for also. No hard parts have been made since the eighties.
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Steve Brown
Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
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1970390amx
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/11/2008 Location: colorado Status: Offline Points: 3314 |
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Somewhere I have seen copies of an article by B+M on beefing the model 12 and it included stuff about swapping in a fmx pump. With mods to the converter hub.
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1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box |
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mramc
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/12/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3220 |
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My understanding the FMX is a Ford built improved version of the M-11/M-12 Borg Warner automatic transmission. My understanding is they both have bolt on bell housings and that transmission can be made to inter change in the bell housing. Ford went on to redesign the FMX into the C-4 /C-6 automatic transmission. I understand back in the day a number of AMC racers used the FMX in place of the M-12s etc. But I'm NOT a automatic transmission expert. LRDaum
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LRDaum
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19679 |
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I've got an article from one of the "mechanics" magazines (Mechanix Illustrated, Popular Mechancis, etc.) from the early 50s. It's on the "new" automatics. Until Studebaker came out with one (in conjunction with Borg-Warner's Detroit Gear Division) around 1950 the only auto trans around was the Hydramatic. Stude ran into financial problems, and Ford stepped in to back BW. The agreement with Ford gave Ford rights to manufacture, but also named BW as a supplier for 50% of Ford's needs for the next five years. The article was around 52-54. Can't lay my hand directly on it right now, but it's in my office somewhere!! The Ford Cruise-O-Matic and others are license built BW trannys, but have unique valve bodies and cases and a few other differences. The rotating assemblies are pretty much the same -- clutches and bands interchange, but some of the units requiring seals are different sizes and/or shapes. That's why a rebuild kit is made that covers several Ford and BW applications -- there are multiple gaskets and seals for some items (like the VB and oil pan). The earlier Ford trannys are more like the BW M-8 than the FMX (or the BW M-11/12). The FMX is more like the M-8 than the M-11 (same type of pressure regulator as M-8) due to the license agreement with BW. The earliest Ford model was called an FX by Ford, the second the MX. The FMX was the last model based on the BW design and has the best of both, which is why it's called the FMX!
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Frank Swygert
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purple72Gremlin
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 16611 |
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FMX direct fit into an AMC? I dont believe it. And I do know that the shift kit companies could not make any high performance parts work very well. IIRC, B&M tried to, and gave up on making them work. I know transgo used to make a shift improver kit. IMHO, the BW is good for restorations. If you want to make a DD, go TF.
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mramc
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/12/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3220 |
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Some where before I lost my recent setup and had to redo it I had a site saved by a Studebaker Avanti guy who redid his Borg Warner automatic to take more horsepower . I've lost the link but it was off shot of one of the Studebaker web sites some where. Sorry I can't add more it's been a while but he did know how to fit some of the BW auto worst problems. LRDaum
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LRDaum
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69 ambassador 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/22/2009 Location: Peoria, AZ Status: Offline Points: 3539 |
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Cool, please don't beleive it because I must have made this all up. Kinda like the B&M info you posted. It certainly couldn't have been that B&M saw a limited return on their investment and stopped offering the mod kits as well as full on race trans because of little demand.
By the way, the FMX in my former Cougar still runs very well and will light the 1-2 shift and chirp the 2-3 shift. Has many miles since I went through it. The FMX/M11-1 hybrid in the Ambo is another examle. I have a herd time beleiving that a company like B&M couldn't make one run when a lowly average guy like me with a TSM and a hydraulic schematic can do wonders with them.
The more people beleive that they are crap, the more parts are still around for me to use. So pardon me for trying to help out fellow AMCers and I'll just keep my trap shut from now on. It's not like I do AMCs for a living or anything!!!!!
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Steve Brown
Algonac, Mi. 69 Ambassador sst 390 84 Grand Wagoneer 69 Cougar XR7 65 Fairlaine 500XL 79 F-350 Super Camper Special |
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purple72Gremlin
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 16611 |
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