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ignition coil - ballast or no?

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uncljohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 10:29am
Did it ever occur to anyone to actually purchase a coil based on the year of the car?
The older form of ignition, by older that is referring to a Kettering style ignition that is one that used points. The ignition system was designed to be used in conjunction with a ballast resistance. That is either an external ballast resistor or a ballast resistance wire built into the wiring system of the car.
Generally that wire went from the ignition switch to the + terminal of the coil .
The resistance of either the external ballast resistor or that of the "ballast" wire was aprx. the value of the primary coil resistance or possibly the "impedance" of the coil
And a coil thus marked for that application would also say an external ballast resistor was required.
With the advent of a solid state ignition and there were various types they may or may not require a ballast resistance. Eventually that need for one was eliminated.
As were other characteristics of a kettering ignition.
Trying to second guess whether a ballast resistor is required with out knowing the characteristics of the ignition system and just holding a coil in your hands with marking on it is a bit like shooting at something in the dark.
AMC like many other manufacturers adapted the wiring of the car to what ever characteristics the ignitions system of choice was at the time.
The last time a kettering ignition was used was some where in the middle 70's. And I don't have all the manuals. But my '74 manual says that the coil MUST NOT have an internal resistance. There is a long torturous explanation of how things work which is typical of the era trying to explain something to an auto mechanic in the TSM as to how to trouble shoot the system with out really explaining anything other than DO NOT USE A COIL THAT HAS AN INTERNAL RESISTANCE. And a circuit explanation does not show a Pink wire. So using that is not a very valid approach to understanding what is going on.
Just a simple statement that all 8 and 6 cylinder motors use a coil that requires an external resistance.
The bottom line as far as I am concerned, is buy a coil based on the year of the car. And forget references to a pink wire unless you can confirm they actually mean something.
My 77 manual is equally as vague when it comes to technology but it clearly states that there is no primary circuit resistance wire or ballast resistor used. It also however shows no PINK wire as part of the wiring.

You will however depending on where you look, find references of pink wires going to the alternator. However if you don't know where to look or why it might be easy to confuse this with how the ignition works.

Frank pointed out that older Rambler or AMC products used an external ballast resistor which was industry standard pretty much
Some where in the late 60's AMC axed the ballast resistor and went to a wiring harness ballast wire. Some where in the middle 70's, 75 or 76 AMC was pretty much electronic ignition. Many if not most of that era simply had an electronic method to eliminate points and their adjustments. Largely to satisfy a federal edict that the ignition system run 50,000 mile with no maintenance required.
Coils may be marked as needing an external ballast. On AMC cars with a built in ballast wire, that is satisfied. So for those applications, do not use one that does not require an external ballast.   
As the 70's morphed into the 80's the electronic ignition system grew and developed it's own benefits and pretty much totally eliminated many functions the Kettering ignition. Also requiring changes in ignition wiring and distributor designs. And used coils called out as needed to make things work. So each year may require something different.

Edited by uncljohn - Oct/29/2015 at 10:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 10:55am
And let's both stop assuming, cuz we know where that gets us. I am assuming that they have asked the counter man for a coil by model year and make. You are assuming that we are all collectively thick as posts and have not done the obvious. Even if the question was not asked, I can not imagine a counterman not starting there, if he has more than a day on the job.

I am under the impression that there is no listing in the parts book for a 50 year old Rambler and this is not causing me any great shock, given the age of the car and my own parts desk experience.  So at that point what one is left with is what people have been trying to do, ie read the side of the coil and the circuit diagram. That is how one finds out the characteristics of the ignition system you are dealing with. I would like to point out that clearly this has been an issue for several people, not just the OP.

So, the approach being taken is not the best, but it may be the only immediate option. 

Chris  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 11:18am
Just wondering - is there such a thing as a "parts list" for a 1958 Rambler American?

I've got the car's original 1958 Owner's Handbook and Technical Service Manual, but neither give any specifics on what the original equipment coil was.  The wiring diagram I found online shows no coil details, nor resistor:

http://www.diagro.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/1958-Rambler-6-American-Wiring-Diagram-Herein-we-will-see-several-components-like-courtesy-light-cigar-lighter-clock-clock-light-heater-switch-light-switch.jpg

But the 1965 diagram does show an orange wire leading to a resistor, wired to a yellow wire going to the coil.  This may be what some folks call the "pink" wire.

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Rambler/MWire5765-375.jpg

Note:  I went to several auto parts stores (Advance Auto, NAPA, etc.) and asked for the proper coil for my 1958 Rambler American DeLuxe.  All the vendors had the car in their database, but only showed an "external ballast required" coil.  None listed an internal resistance coil.  

So I just bought a NAPA Echlin IC14.  The coil itself is labeled "NAPA/Echlin 12v - No external resistor required - 905"; the number 507 is stamped on the base of the coil.

Thanks for the advice.  I'm replacing the coil, condenser, points, and rotor, trying to eliminate a random hesitation (or "miss) at speed.  I've already verified timing, valves, compression, fuel flow, carb adjustment.  Note that the coil in the car when I got it was the "external ballast required" coil, so I'm guessing it may have caused points damage, and thus the hesitation.

Tom M.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 11:22am
To get back to the original poster's question, here are some suggestions. I usually work with late 60's/early 70's systems, but the principles are the same. 

-Points style ignition of the era generally likes to see about 3 ohms of resistance, which gives a nice compromise between hot spark and frying points.
-There are good coils such as Pertronix that give 3 ohms resistance.
- Make sure that your condenser is a proper match to that coil. Not sure if it matters, but worth a check. 
-The only other issue I can see is that often older points systems have a mechanism for cutting out resistance wires or ballasts during cold cranking. Some work from the ignition switch or starter solenoid. Others work by variable resistance ballasts that build resistance as heat accumulates. Probably you don't have such a system if there is no external resistance, but worth a check. If this is a summer only car it likely is not that important. 

Hopefully that helps!

Chris 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 3:24pm
I found out a few things today. From the computer in the auto parts store a 58 Rambler takes a UC15 if it has Lucas ignition and a UC12 if it has Delco ignition. The T behind the P/N just designates economy series and yes, they do have made in China written on the coil.

The UC12 is slightly smaller in diameter than the UC15. I had to spread the bracket for the UC15 but the UC12 they gave me today slides right in, just like it was meant to. This and the fact that mine did not run with the UC15 sort of tells me that I may need the UC12 and I was told they sell a lot of them.

 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 4:15pm
Gentlemen - success.

From NAPA today I purchased:

- NAPA/Echlin IC14 coil (no external ballast required)
- NAPA/Echlin CS763A contact point set
- NAPA/Echlin RR174 condenser
- NAPA/Echlin RR83 distributor rotor

Their online catalogue did *not* show these parts for my 1958 Rambler American.  The parts shown for my car actually didn't even fit inside the distributor.

I gave the NAPA person the distributor info for my car:  Delco/Remy 1112426.  He called a regional supplier, gave the distributor number, and received the four parts I listed above.

The engine now starts immediately, and there is no hesitation at speed.

I figure the previous incorrect (external resistor required) coil, not having an external resistor in the circuit, caused the point failure.  Close examination of the old points showed them to be charred, rough, and quite thin.

Hope this helps someone.
Thanks again.  Onward through the fog!
Tom M.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 4:33pm
Now there is a counter guy we could all use! Pretty little car and glad to hear that she is running healthy.

Chris 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by ccowx ccowx wrote:

Now there is a counter guy we could all use! Pretty little car and glad to hear that she is running healthy.

Chris 

I hear you there!  Actually used his brain, and not just his computer.

Here are closeups of the old point set.


and the really bad one:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RSX 401 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/29/2015 at 7:24pm
If you have an O'Reilly Auto Parts in your area, get part number 2-5025. It's a 12volt coil and does not require an external resistor. Also, it has a lifetime warranty and should have "External resistor not required" printed on the coil.
I'll follow these lines a little ways more,

Until I can find what I'm looking for.

With the pedal to the metal,

I'm gaining my speed.

Riding down low in my AMC.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocklandrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/30/2015 at 12:23am
As far as a "parts list" goes for a '58 American your TSM should have the data on the coil. At the end of the ELECTRICAL section on my '65 American TSM are the specs for the starter, alternator, distributor, battery, voltage regulator, etc. For the coil:

Make     Delco-Remy
Model    1115066
Primary Resistance (OHM)   3.3-4.1
Secondary Resistance       7200-9500
Past AMC's
1974 Hornet X (new)
1975 Gremlin X (new)
1964 Classic 660 Cross Country
1965 American 440-H
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