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No Brake lights - Bad turn signal switch? |
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JipJopJones 
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Joined: Jun/18/2015 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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 Topic: No Brake lights - Bad turn signal switch?Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 1:17am |
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I've traced the wires, and found I have power all the way up to (and after) the pressure switch in the master. However somewhere after that it's going dead, and thus, I have no brake lights. My signal lights do work, as do my running lights. However I have read (mostly on this forum and others) that if the signal turn switch is bad, it can affect all sorts of other systems. Looking at a wiring diagram, it does appear as though the brake lights pass through this switch. Is it possible that my running lights and turn indicators work and the switch is still bad? Does anyone have thoughts on this matter? Any tips? I'm really at a loss with these lights... I manged to get them to work with a bypass rigged up straight off the switch at the master cylinder. Appreciate any advice/tips on this. Regards, Justin
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billd
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Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 6:49am |
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The turn signals on pre-80s cars interrupt the brake light signal to get turn signals to the rear.
When you turn left, the turn signal switch breaks the connection to the left brake light and routes it through the flasher and then back to the bulb. When you turn right the switch breaks the connection for the right brake light and routes it through the flasher then back to the right brake light bulb(s). When not turning, the turn signal switch routes the signal from the brake light switch straight back to the brake light bulbs, left and right - so it's possible that part of your switch is bad or dirty. So to have turn signals at the rear, the brake light power has to be getting to the switch which when you turn then routes it through to the flasher. But it's the part of the switch that's routing it straight that's not working. Is it the switch itself - or a wire - or at the large flat connector at the lower portion of the steering column? Disconnect that large flat connector where the wires for the TS switch enter the column - using a test light that is NOT self-powered, connect the ground clip of the test light to a good metal ground inside the car under the dash, and use the other end and with the brake pedal pressed, find a wire that is "hot" in that connector when you press the brake pedal. It takes 3 hands sometimes..... We want to make sure you are getting power FROM the brake light switch to that column connector that feeds the turn signal switch, no use ripping into the steering column if the problem is a wire or connection between the brake light switch and the column!! If you get power that far when you press the brake pedal, then you are likely isolated the issue to the steering column area - the turn signal switch is a good bet, but you could also go further by finding out of you get power back OUT of the turn signal switch - once you know which wire sends power from the brake light switch UP the column to the turn signal switch, you could see if anything is getting back DOWN to the brake lights - normally it's 1 wire hot going up when you press the brakes, 2 hot back down since the left and right have to operate independently to have a left and right turn signal. Honestly when I worked in the former dealership shop we used to replace a whole lot of turn signal switches, yeah, many were for a broken cancel cam, but more than a few were for electrical failure. MAYBE some kind member has an early TSM (Technical Service Manual) for your year and can tell you which wires you should be checking so you don't have to figure it out under a dark dash. |
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rocklandrambler
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Joined: Feb/09/2013 Location: Nanuet, NY Status: Offline Points: 3953 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 7:34am |
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Per the '64 American TSM the white and the orange wires are the hot coming OUT of the steering column going back to the rear lights. I believe the blue wire should be the hot going IN to the column. Hope this helps.
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Past AMC's
1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
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raysinvegas
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Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Las Vegas NV Status: Offline Points: 2501 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 8:00am |
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Absolutely, in fact it's common. You can either replace the turn signal switch, or convert it to the later style brake light switch that works off the pedal.
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Andy Ray
64 440H 64 440 Convertible 68 Javelin SST 343 69 Javelin SST 343 69 SC/Rambler 
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billd
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Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 8:41am |
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eh, but converting the brake light switch won't do anything for a bad turn signal switch. All that would do it get a more "modern" brake light switch (which IMO are a pain in the rear, messing with wiring up under the dash). Old or new brake light switch, the wires still go to/through the turn signal switch, and if that's determined to be bad......... he'd still need to deal with that. As rockland supplied the wire colors that will help immensely! Now armed with those wire colors he can determine if there's power at the wire going TO the TS switch, and then if there's power coming back out both of the other wires with the switch in the not turning position - straight ahead. If he's got power going in the one wire, but not coming out the other TWO, he's found his problem. If it's got power going into and coming out of the brake light switch, no use messing with that unless he wants to convert - personally I'd leave the pressure switch as long as it works at least until he gets the brake lights working, otherwise he's making two changes at the same time and troubleshooting is twice as difficult if not more. As long as the current brake light switch is functioning and if he finds the trouble is indeed the turn signal switch, which is not at all uncommon, best to fix that, get it all working, then mess with a conversion on the other if he wishes. If you replace two electrical parts at once, and something no longer works - which replacement was the problem? In a way I wish my brake switch WAS a pressure switch and not shoved up under the dash crammed in with the package tray blocking any access to any under-dash regions. To access anything requires removing the console, removing the package tray, removing steering column trim, etc. What a pain.  |
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bbrooks2
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Joined: Jun/22/2014 Location: killen alabama Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 9:29am |
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Might not help but I replaced drums and shoes front and back and found that my brake lights only worked when I stood on them hard. I have not crawled under there yet but I would think I can adjust the switch to come on as soon as the pedal is pressed.
So could it just be your switch not coming on when needed? |
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64 CJ3B
66 Classic 770 77 Wagoneer 401/400 88 J20 It's not how many words you use it's how you use your words. |
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raysinvegas
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Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Las Vegas NV Status: Offline Points: 2501 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 10:27am |
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Finding a turn signal switch for a 64-65 American is nearly impossible. It is NOT the same switch as the 66-69 Americans. If everything else works, the underdash switch is inexpensive and a pretty easy install. This is a 64 American, NOT an Eagle. There is no package tray, no need to remove the column or other rediculous surgery.It's two wires and will get him legal and back on the road. The pressure switch COULD be the culprit. Napa was selling Chinese made junk switches. Ron Francis sold me an American made switch that still works fine. Understand that a sizeable amount of pressure needs to be applied to the brake pedal to activate the switch.
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Andy Ray
64 440H 64 440 Convertible 68 Javelin SST 343 69 Javelin SST 343 69 SC/Rambler
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Buzzman72
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Joined: Sep/15/2009 Location: Southern IN Status: Offline Points: 2726 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 1:25pm |
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If I'm reading the original post correctly...and if he's using the original brake light switch and BYPASSING the turn signal switch to get brake lights...then it's obvious to me that the original brake light switch is NOT the problem.
Just like Bill said. So if he changes to the pedal mounted switch, and doesn't touch the turn signal switch...what has he gained? Best I can tell, that would be simply changing out ONE working switch for another. Best I can tell, it's not the ORIGINAL poster who said he had to stand on the pedal to get brake lights...so that's apparently someone else's problem.
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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.
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billd
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Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 2:39pm |
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Let's look again - is quote:
>>I've traced the wires, and found I have power all the way up to (and after) the pressure switch in the master. However somewhere after that it's going dead, and thus, I have no brake lights.<< So, it's the brake light switch since he has traced it to and after the brake light switch? All the way up to and after the pressure switch implies to me that he's got a switch that is working, but something after the switch, as he suggests, is stopping it. He didn't say he's bypassing it to get brake lights - he's got turn signals but that's a different matter - that's from a different source. Having done auto electric since the early 1970s, each time I found power to the brake light switch, and going through the switch to the wire after the switch, I had decided the switch must be ok.....(and was never proven wrong) Now if the original poster of the original question is wrong and didn't find power AFTER the brake light switch, that's different, but I'm going to take him at his word, that he traced it to and after the brake light switch, and he's losing it after it gets through that switch, indicating to me he's done basic troubleshooting, and he also implies to me that he knew to check that brake light switch first, found it ok and now is asking "what else could it be since I have traced....have POWER before and (Power) after......." Or am I reading his quote wrong? I don't think so - folks, his brake light switch is ok - see his statement here - the words "and after" are a big clue, IMO.
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Buzzman72
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Joined: Sep/15/2009 Location: Southern IN Status: Offline Points: 2726 |
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Posted: Jun/23/2015 at 10:56pm |
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Bill, here's where I "interpreted "that he's bypassing the turn signal switch to get brake lights:
"I manged to get them to work with a bypass rigged up straight off the switch at the master cylinder." I believe HE came up with the word "bypass", and with it he "manged to get them to work." Since he's coming "straight off the switch at the master cylinder", I would assume he's talking about the brake lights...since no other lights have a switch at the master cylinder. So I'm assuming he's bypassing the turn signal switch, and NOT the brake light switch. Pardon me if I misinterpreted what he said [wrote].
Edited by Buzzman72 - Jun/23/2015 at 11:01pm |
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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.
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JipJopJones wrote: