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Formulation of AMC cast iron

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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/28/2014 at 3:52pm
Modern carbide tools cut through any metal easily. It's the older tool steel bits that don't last as long on AMC blocks. Guys, I'm not digging through my paperwork right now, though I know you want to see something in writing. Somewhere I've got a statement that AMC used about 0.05% more nickel in their blocks. That's not much, but just enough to make it a bit tougher and harder. They did use the same mix in all the blocks and heads. It was this slightly tougher mix that allowed them to induction harden their heads instead of installing stellite seats when unleaded fuel became the norm. Otherwise the hardening would have made the seats too brittle. As someone pointed out to me -- it's just a case hardening that is only a few thousandths of an inch thick, so after maybe one valve seat grind it's pretty much gone (assuming the seats weren't damaged on that one grind!).  I've had several old time machinists say they had to slow their boring down a bit to bore AMC blocks -- even old 196s (the first one who mentioned it was boring a 196 L-head for me back in 1980). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/28/2014 at 4:21pm
I worked with 2 machine shops here as well as a machine shop in my home town (the fellow son happened to be my HS metal shop teacher!)
I have asked - especially the one local shop that did my last 2 AMC blocks. I asked them as they have a wall full photos of vehicles with AMC engines they have done, they have a long history with Jeeps.
They got this look like what the heck was I talking about....... no, they said they could never tell any difference.
You can find reference on the web to Ford racing engines and some here and there about Chevy racing engines. Apparently it's confirmed that certain Ford engines did up the nickle content, but not across the board for all production engines.
I have yet to find any shop that will even say "we think so" on AMC engines being "different" or harder. Even the shop that cut the 390 for me to install sleeves..... "not a problem, it's just like any other block we do" (I asked as at that time I, too, was questioning the content of those blocks.)
And I'm talking about the old-timers my age or older, not youngsters in newer shops with modern equipment and tools. Some of their tooling is as old as I am.
I've bored a few AMC 6s myself back in the 70s, using the Kent-Moore tools we had from when it was a dealership. I never noted any differences or difficulties. These tools I refer to came out of the late 50s. I have piston pin reamers and other dealer tools and equipment for working on those old engines - never a problem.
I've run ridge-reamers through over the decades, including "cheap" ones and they cut the AMC block material just like any other block. (gotta be careful with those things or you can screw up a block as easily as saving it)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WARBED Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/28/2014 at 5:39pm
Whatever there made of they do hold up well.
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aljav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/28/2014 at 7:33pm
We need to find someone who has other motors information. It be a good start for comparison and then we need to find someone who can tell us how to accurately compare the info.

Originally posted by Class Guy Class Guy wrote:

From the AMC blueprints for the 951 casting 401 block. This may not be applicable to the rest of the AMC engine line.

69 AMX 9.86 132 mph 71 JAV/AMX and 69 Javelin, .. NAMDRA member #1106
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote centash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/28/2014 at 8:41pm
could one apply Archemedies principle and immerse/weigh various blocks or heads to determine their density? Different densities of a Gm block vs. an AMC block would seem to infer different composition of the casting metals used. Anyone got a big tub....?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boris Badanov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/29/2014 at 4:47am
Cool idea, but the subtle differences from differing metalurgy and heat treat
anneal and use of chill blocks would be impossible to pick up by measuring
volume/density in a tub of waterSmile
 
More likely addition of different metal alloys and silica have to do with
cracking/loss of castings at the foundry and initial machining operations.
Maganese in tiny ammounts make the material tough, nickle seems
to have been added primarily reducing cracking loss.
 
If you want a hard surface in a casting iron, it's easy, just cool the area
faster than  the rest of the casting. In the bad old days they used
"chill blocks" to harden the ways when manufacturing machienery.
 
Boris Badanov
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote centash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/29/2014 at 4:09pm
Guess I was just having an "Eureka!" moment....lol
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyamerican Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2014 at 7:30pm
What you're doing is just the kind of data I'd like to see.  I've heard that different castings of the same block can vary in hardness/tensile strength due to many factors.  The only way to get solid info would be to send samples from many blocks to be tested, but I'm not suggesting you or anyone do this.  Even checking one will maybe give you a real-life representation of the differences.  Thanks!
1970 Javelin SST 360
1985 Eagle wagon, 5-speed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/11/2014 at 4:52pm
Bringing this one back to the forefront too.

At 90 some thousand miles, the engine in the White70JavelinSST began to have a strange intermittent HUFF sound at the tail pipe. We decided it had ingested a bit of something or a chunk of carbon came loose and damaged at least one exhaust valve face and seat. Upon tear down, the cross hatch pattern was clearly visible in all the cylinder bores. I cannot explain why this was so except that the block was harder than the typical SBC which at about 90,000 the cylinders were pretty hogged out by the rings. Extra nickel in the cast iron? Who's to say? But this engine is harder than SBC material for sure.

BTW we did this with the engine still in the car. blankin heads and intake are very heavy and a bear cat to lift out from the engine compartment.

Armand
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WARBED Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/11/2014 at 5:46pm
I've had many engines machined and have used the same machinist on all my engines. He mentioned to me years ago that AMC, International and some chevy performance blocks were harder on his boring bar bits then other engines. he did mention nickle and the grade of iron in the blocks. It doesn't take much  nickle to make a better formula for casting, too much and then you have concerns with heat dissapation and other concerns. oh and it gets real expensive.
59 American 2dr S/W. 70 390 AMX. 70 232 javelin. Kelvinator fridge ice cold beer storage.
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