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Formulation of AMC cast iron |
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flyamerican
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Nov/18/2009 Location: Sparks, Nevada Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 7:37pm |
Everyone knows that AMC engines used high-nickel castings that were better than the other guy's casting, right? Well, maybe not. I can't find one shred of evidence, in many hours of research, on why we think that. All that I find are opinions and hearsay. I also find the same opinions and hearsay about Chevy, Ford, Cadillac, Studebaker, and probably any other make of engine. The only solid data I could find was where one guy on a Stude forum produced a factory document that stated the mix for the blocks - no nickel at all. We all want to believe our AMC stuff was better than the run of the mill stuff from the big 3, but I bet we'd all rather know we are factual in saying so! I've been sent to a specific publication for the data by one of the icons of our hobby, and it was a dead end. Another icon says he's sure of the fact that AMC used an alloy, but can't verify the source. To qualify the data, I'd want it to be from a genuine AMC source document (probably not a sales brochure) or info based on quantitative testing of actual AMC blocks and heads. I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but it would be nice to know once and for all if this "high-nickel" talk is fact or myth. Specifically, I'd like to try to get the answers to the following: 1) The formulation used for Gen 1 V8 blocks and heads, 2) The formulation for Gen 2 & 3 V8 blocks and heads, and 3) Were the I6's the same formula? I ask about the heads because of various claims about the seat hardness, and because the color of the metal in the casting of my factory 360 block is a very different color than that of the original 291C heads. I hope someone out there can enlighten us!
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1970 Javelin SST 360
1985 Eagle wagon, 5-speed |
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SnakePlissken
AMC Addicted Joined: Mar/29/2013 Location: Washington Co. Status: Offline Points: 595 |
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Some makes you mention had lower nickel in some of their engines. The 2.5 GM Iron duke, for example was one of them. Certain year 305 Chevrolet's were low as well.
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1976 Matador & 1972 Gremlin
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M+M
AMC Apprentice Joined: Oct/27/2012 Location: Guyton, GA Status: Offline Points: 228 |
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I have spoken to a few metalurgists regarding this topic as well as the actual purpose of nickel which creates tensile strength(flexibility) Not "hardness".... I am talking with one of these out of Atlanta and will be sending samples cut from various heads/locations/castings etc. They have already debunked all the high nickel content myths in the chevy world such as the fabled 10 10 20 blocks that were even published in books etc as being high nickel hi po etc. They all agree that the high nickel myths are one of the biggest misconceptions and misunderstandings out there.
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M+M Performance Heads & Machine
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Performance-Heads-and-Machine/209556499235670?ref=hl |
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fast401
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Sep/16/2008 Location: swanton, ohio Status: Offline Points: 3467 |
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Just ask a machinest about tooling life when they do AMC engines.
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Disturbing the peace since 1970!!! AMX 19245
Facebook page - AMC Nation www.fast-401.4t.com |
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M+M
AMC Apprentice Joined: Oct/27/2012 Location: Guyton, GA Status: Offline Points: 228 |
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What would you like to know??
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M+M Performance Heads & Machine
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Performance-Heads-and-Machine/209556499235670?ref=hl |
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M+M
AMC Apprentice Joined: Oct/27/2012 Location: Guyton, GA Status: Offline Points: 228 |
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Forget the word Hardness.... as someone said... Glass is HARD as heck, but would make a lousy engine block... Tensile Strength... Strength and Flexibilty, Cast Iron by itself is extremely Hard, but very brittle, easy on tooling, add a little nickel and a few other alloys to the matrix, its not as brittle and becomes "tougher" but is it hard to machine AMC?? Absolutely not, HSS and Carbide walk through it like butter, just like the others..... how much factual nickel is in the AMC matrix and what does different castings test out at... we shall find out. Then we can take those numbers and compare to other brands matrix. And at the end of the day what will all this accomplish... absolutely nothing really. Its just easier to debate and dish out keyboard beatings with actual facts.
Edited by M+M - Jan/23/2014 at 9:23pm |
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M+M Performance Heads & Machine
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Budwisr
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/09/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 583 |
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The AMC grey iron used chromium to improve hardness and strength. It takes very little chromium to improve the hardness and strength of grey iron as opposed to nickel which takes a much higher percent. Chromium also improves the temperature properties of grey iron. I beleive only all out race engines used high nickel content as it is expensive and very difficult to machine. |
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1970 AMX 1980 AMX <br |
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Class Guy
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 969 |
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From the AMC blueprints for the 951 casting 401 block. This may not be applicable to the rest of the AMC engine line.
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Budwisr
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/09/2007 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 583 |
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1970 AMX 1980 AMX <br |
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Buzzman72
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/15/2009 Location: Southern IN Status: Online Points: 2713 |
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I talked once with a fellow who had worked at the International Harvester foundry at their now-defunct Louisville, KY works. He said that, since the foundry and the assembly plant were on the same premises, a lot of the "recycles" that went onto their steel came from the plant. It was his OPINION--and I stress the word OPINION-- that their cast iron likely had a higher content of steel in in than what the metallurgical engineers had intended.
I would wonder if other foundries had similar stories, as far as their "recycles" are concerned. I know the "recycles" would affect the content of their castings, but I have no idea to what degree. Anyone here have any foundry experience to add?
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Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.
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