TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Formulation of AMC cast iron
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Formulation of AMC cast iron

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 14>
Author
Message
flyamerican View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Nov/18/2009
Location: Sparks, Nevada
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyamerican Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Formulation of AMC cast iron
    Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 7:37pm
Everyone knows that AMC engines used high-nickel castings that were better than the other guy's casting, right?  Well, maybe not.  I can't find one shred of evidence, in many hours of research, on why we think that.  All that I find are opinions and hearsay.  I also find the same opinions and hearsay about Chevy, Ford, Cadillac, Studebaker, and probably any other make of engine.  The only solid data I could find was where one guy on a Stude forum produced a factory document that stated the mix for the blocks - no nickel at all.  We all want to believe our AMC stuff was better than the run of the mill stuff from the big 3, but I bet we'd all rather know we are factual in saying so!  I've been sent to a specific publication for the data by one of the icons of our hobby, and it was a dead end.  Another icon says he's sure of the fact that AMC used an alloy, but can't verify the source.  To qualify the data, I'd want it to be from a genuine AMC source document (probably not a sales brochure) or info based on quantitative testing of actual AMC blocks and heads.  I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but it would be nice to know once and for all if this "high-nickel" talk is fact or myth.  Specifically, I'd like to try to get the answers to the following: 1) The formulation used for Gen 1 V8 blocks and heads, 2) The formulation for Gen 2 & 3 V8 blocks and heads, and 3) Were the I6's the same formula?  I ask about the heads because of various claims about the seat hardness, and because the color of the metal in the casting of my factory 360 block is a very different color than that of the original 291C heads.  I hope someone out there can enlighten us!
1970 Javelin SST 360
1985 Eagle wagon, 5-speed
Back to Top
SnakePlissken View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Mar/29/2013
Location: Washington Co.
Status: Offline
Points: 595
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SnakePlissken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 8:35pm
Some makes you mention had lower nickel in some of their engines. The 2.5 GM Iron duke, for example was one of them. Certain year 305 Chevrolet's were low as well. 
1976 Matador & 1972 Gremlin
Back to Top
M+M View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice


Joined: Oct/27/2012
Location: Guyton, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote M+M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 8:38pm
I have spoken to a few metalurgists regarding this topic as well as the actual purpose of nickel which creates tensile strength(flexibility) Not "hardness".... I am talking with one of these out of Atlanta and will be sending samples cut from various heads/locations/castings etc. They have already debunked all the high nickel content myths in the chevy world such as the fabled 10 10 20 blocks that were even published in books etc as being high nickel hi po etc. They all agree that the high nickel myths are one of the biggest misconceptions and misunderstandings out there.
M+M Performance Heads & Machine
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Performance-Heads-and-Machine/209556499235670?ref=hl
Back to Top
fast401 View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Sep/16/2008
Location: swanton, ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 3467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fast401 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 8:55pm
Just ask a machinest about tooling life when they do AMC engines.  
Disturbing the peace since 1970!!!   AMX 19245
Facebook page - AMC Nation
www.fast-401.4t.com
Back to Top
M+M View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice


Joined: Oct/27/2012
Location: Guyton, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M+M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by fast401 fast401 wrote:

Just ask a machinest about tooling life when they do AMC engines.  

What would you like to know??LOL
M+M Performance Heads & Machine
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Performance-Heads-and-Machine/209556499235670?ref=hl
Back to Top
M+M View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice


Joined: Oct/27/2012
Location: Guyton, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote M+M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 9:08pm
Forget the word Hardness.... as someone said... Glass is HARD as heck, but would make a lousy engine block... Tensile Strength... Strength and Flexibilty, Cast Iron by itself is extremely Hard, but very brittle, easy on tooling, add a little nickel and a few other alloys to the matrix, its not as brittle and becomes "tougher" but is it hard to machine AMC?? Absolutely not, HSS and Carbide walk through it like butter, just like the others..... how much factual nickel is in the AMC matrix and what does different castings test out at... we shall find out. Then we can take those numbers and compare to other brands matrix. And at the end of the day what will all this accomplish... absolutely nothing really.LOL Its just easier to debate and dish out keyboard beatings with actual facts.LOLLOL

Edited by M+M - Jan/23/2014 at 9:23pm
M+M Performance Heads & Machine
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Performance-Heads-and-Machine/209556499235670?ref=hl
Back to Top
Budwisr View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/09/2007
Location: Illinois
Status: Online
Points: 583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Budwisr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2014 at 9:32pm

The AMC grey iron used chromium to improve hardness and strength. It takes very little chromium to improve the hardness and strength of grey iron as opposed to nickel which takes a much higher percent. Chromium also improves the temperature properties of grey iron. I beleive only all out race engines used high nickel content as it is expensive and very difficult to machine.



1970 AMX 1980 AMX
<br
Back to Top
Class Guy View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/02/2007
Location: Arkansas
Status: Offline
Points: 969
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Class Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2014 at 6:53am
From the AMC blueprints for the 951 casting 401 block. This may not be applicable to the rest of the AMC engine line.

Back to Top
Budwisr View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/09/2007
Location: Illinois
Status: Online
Points: 583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Budwisr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2014 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Class Guy Class Guy wrote:

From the AMC blueprints for the 951 casting 401 block. This may not be applicable to the rest of the AMC engine line.

 I've read that AMC used the same specs across it's engine line. That may have changed at some point when their production went up. From what I've been told, anything over .35% chromium is extremely high and graphite needs to be added to prevent "hard edges".


1970 AMX 1980 AMX
<br
Back to Top
Buzzman72 View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Sep/15/2009
Location: Southern IN
Status: Online
Points: 2713
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2014 at 10:23am
I talked once with a fellow who had worked at the International Harvester foundry at their now-defunct Louisville, KY works.  He said that, since the foundry and the assembly plant were on the same premises, a lot of the "recycles" that went onto their steel came from the plant.  It was his OPINION--and I stress the word OPINION-- that their cast iron likely had a higher content of steel in in than what the metallurgical engineers had intended.

I would wonder if other foundries had similar stories, as far as their "recycles" are concerned.  I know the "recycles" would affect the content of their castings, but I have no idea to what degree.

Anyone here have any foundry experience to add?
Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 14>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.168 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or