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AMC ENGINE PAINT CONFUSION

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Rebelmachineguy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebelmachineguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/21/2008 at 10:29am

Thank you for clearing that up billd about Caravelle Blue - for once and for all I hope.

However, as far as it being possible for paint to run out - Larry Mitchell has a pretty good reputation as an AMC historian and I have to say that I believed and still believe what he said about his experience at the engine plant. He knows too many obscure details about that event and others to be fabricating anything. He was sincere and honest in my estimation. Add to that the fact that AMC's computers of the day were not the computers we have become used to. That computer room would have been a room full of mainframes and their use was not nearly as flexible, powerful or useful as even a base model PC today. Plus there was no internet. Communications were crude by today's standards. Photocopy machines were in their infancy having just evolved from wooden trays with about a 1/2" of chemicals in them that you fed special paper through to make copies one at a time.

Mis-communications between manufacturers and suppliers were notoriously poor by today's standards and all sorts of fixes and shenanigans were employed to keep the lines going. The word “backordered” was in heavy use in those days. There was no such thing as just-in-time shipping and calculations about how much of a given product to order was partly or mostly based on human estimates, not computer projections the further into the model year you went.

Not all of the model year's cars or engines of a colour were built at the same time. The initial runs were done with colours being applied to cars one after the other. After that, the colours were applied to the shells according to customer order in the order the orders came in. That's why you can't use the VIN to determine the sequence the car came down the line. On a Machine it's the 'W' number on the bottom of the door tag that determines order of production. The VIN's were numbered according to the order of the documents sitting on someone's desk - the order in which the paperwork was completed in other words.

AMC was notorious for poor to non-existent record keeping. That is the single biggest reason there is so much confusion about what was and was not original on our cars. No PC's meant most day to day record keeping was done by hand and kept as hard copies much of it hand written. Our build sheets in Machines are little scraps of paper with a hand written directive – ‘Mach spec 059”. They were not real build sheets as other manufacturers knew them. Most of the production standards were processes that were word of mouth. It was not unheard of for cars to be built to order and then painted the wrong colour and subsequently refused by the customer.

As for production standards, Rebel Machines are a classic example. The Red, White and Blue cars were supposed to be built with the first 1,000 in RWB before January 1970. But based on survival rates and evidence from the Rebel Machine Registry run by Mickey Ziomkowski; that almost certainly could not have happened. There are not enough pre-January 1 1970 cars in the registry before the first solid colour cars were built when you compare those numbers against the total known production. It was specifically noted in the Press Kit that RWB cars could not and would not be produced with a vinyl roof but we now know that one was and was butt ugly. It was also stated that all Machines came with factory ram air and hood tach but we now know that one Machine was delivered with a regular hood, no scoop, no tach, no pigtail to hook up to a tach and no evidence that the wire harness had ever been tampered with. The very first Machine used in all of the advertising shoots was different in a multitude of ways from the production run and the very last Rebel Machine built was hand built by the factory and it differed from the production run in other ways. Throughout the run, there were all sorts of verified anomalies. There were three production runs of the stripe kits. The original art from the first run must have been lost because the second run of stripes was quite different from the first and the third run corrected the mistakes of the second and reverted back fairly faithfully to the original run. The variation in interiors is adventure in production standards departures – they weren’t common but they did exist – mostly because if it meant making a sale, AMC was hot on the trail.

And there were all sorts of ways to put things together and still be acceptable. Notably, the lever on the highback bucket seats could go on two different ways. The correct way was with the tab above the pivot screw. But many were installed upside down. You know they are upside down when you stop to think about it because in this position they are difficult to operate and they catch on the clothes of people entering and exiting the back seat. Plus the correct position is shown in ‘the Mix for the Seventies from American Motors’ on the 28th (facing) page.

Another thing to remember was that if possible, AMC sold its prototypes. None of the prototypes conformed to production standards and as a result, some of the prototypes have affected restorations. So then you have to ask yourself what exactly were the production standards? Basically they were guidelines that everyone knew would be bent or broken in certain cases when a sale was on the line. In those days, a departure from standard did not cause system wide convulsions the way rigid manufacturing practices do today.

The other factor often overlooked is the effect strikes had on materials supply and there were plenty of strikes during that model year. In those days, strikes were more common in the auto sector than they are now and the disruptions were often debilitating. In the event of a strike against a supplier, make do’s were the order of the day. Things didn’t run anywhere nearly as smoothly back then as the rosy mists of the intervening years seem to suggest. The 1970 Camaros didn’t appear until half way through the 1970 model year due to a strike. All of the manufacturers had to contend with severe supply problems that year.

As for product controls, AMC was the best of the Big Four as they were known then. But even that was dismal by today’s standards. Fit and finish on domestically produced cars of all types was rough with the 1970 Corvette winning the Lemon of the Year Award from Seymore Balz of Cars Magazine for fit and finish. If quality control hadn’t been such an issue, Ralph Nader wouldn’t have had any ammunition. He took shots at AMC as well as the rest of them. Plus AMC had some truly horrific production secrets that eventually became a major factor in their being bought by Chrysler and ensured that at some point, AMC was going to come to an ignominious end no matter what.

Anyway, the bottom line is that production standards were followed most of the time but there were enough departures without proper record keeping that ensured that future generations would of necessity continue to scratch their head in frustration.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 70 Donohue 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/20/2016 at 5:28pm
Does anyone actually know where I can get one can of EN75 blue for my 78 304 besides Eastwood? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcfool1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/20/2016 at 6:17pm
hi, try www.amarkamc.com, good luck, gz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2016 at 4:22pm
Seymour (The good folks that make the EN-66) will sell them to you, but you have to buy 600 cans at a time.....  Disapprove
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 70 Donohue 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2016 at 9:33pm
Seymour has dropped EN75 and Amarks looks too blue and darker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linglingjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2016 at 11:01pm
What about Earlier AMCs? I've read "The 287s were forum blue poly;the old Ditzler code is 12826. An old time paint vendor should be able to mix you up some. LRDaum"

But this forum blue color is super dark (non metallic) and is the color used on the air cleaner housing as well as the dipstick  and tubes.  What is the correct metallic color for the rest of the 287?  I bought EN-66 thinking it looked super close from photos and it is much darker and greener than the original paint that survived on my starter.  

This chart from an even more convoluted 7 page thread about engine paint makes the en-66 look to be the closest match.  


If the seymore cans really vary so extremely much by batch, I guess I shouldn't worry... This is pretty silly. 


Edited by Linglingjr - Mar/22/2016 at 1:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linglingjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2016 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

Seymour (The good folks that make the EN-66) will sell them to you, but you have to buy 600 cans at a time.....  Disapprove

You can get a single can of EN-66 on eBay for $12.  Engine rebuild shops should be able to get it for you as well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 4:26am
Originally posted by Rebelmachineguy Rebelmachineguy wrote:

...The variation in interiors is adventure in production standards departures – they weren’t common but they did exist – mostly because if it meant making a sale, AMC was hot on the trail....


The variation in instrument cluster bezels is a prime example of variations with Machines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71SC360 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 4:38am
The correct Seymour code for the later (73-78) blue is BU-75. They dropped that paint 30+ years ago but my father was a Seymour distributer and we bought a pallet of it to bring it back about 15 years ago. Because it was a one time "pallet" deal, they did not re-introduce it to their regular paint line. In order for it to be made again, you would have to order and buy a pallet of it (88 cases) and unlike the EN-66 which is 6 can cases, the BU-75 is 12 can cases.

Sorry we don't have any of the BU-75 paint left. Although I might have a few cans around here, it 15+ year old paint now..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2016 at 5:14am
Originally posted by 71SC360 71SC360 wrote:

The correct Seymour code for the later (73-78) blue is BU-75. They dropped that paint 30+ years ago but my father was a Seymour distributer and we bought a pallet of it to bring it back about 15 years ago. Because it was a one time "pallet" deal, they did not re-introduce it to their regular paint line. In order for it to be made again, you would have to order and buy a pallet of it (88 cases) and unlike the EN-66 which is 6 can cases, the BU-75 is 12 can cases.

Sorry we don't have any of the BU-75 paint left. Although I might have a few cans around here, it 15+ year old paint now..



It looks like they dropped the #93-3 "1969-1970 American Motors Magnum 500 Charcoal Metalflake Wheel Paint" also.
Roger Gazur
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1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

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