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AMC ENGINE PAINT CONFUSION |
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Rebelmachineguy
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jul/14/2008 Location: Pickering Status: Offline Points: 45 |
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Thank you for clearing that up billd about Caravelle Blue - for once
and for all I hope. However, as far as it being possible for paint
to run out - Larry Mitchell has a pretty good reputation as an AMC historian
and I have to say that I believed and still believe what he said about his
experience at the engine plant. He knows too many obscure details about that
event and others to be fabricating anything. He was sincere and honest in my estimation.
Add to that the fact that AMC's computers of the day were not the computers we
have become used to. That computer room would have been a room full of
mainframes and their use was not nearly as flexible, powerful or useful as even
a base model PC today. Plus there was no internet. Communications were crude by
today's standards. Photocopy machines were in their infancy having just evolved
from wooden trays with about a 1/2" of chemicals in them that you fed
special paper through to make copies one at a time. Mis-communications between manufacturers and
suppliers were notoriously poor by today's standards and all sorts of fixes and
shenanigans were employed to keep the lines going. The word “backordered” was
in heavy use in those days. There was no such thing as just-in-time shipping
and calculations about how much of a given product to order was partly or
mostly based on human estimates, not computer projections the further into the
model year you went. Not all of the model year's cars or engines of a
colour were built at the same time. The initial runs were done with colours
being applied to cars one after the other. After that, the colours were applied
to the shells according to customer order in the order the orders came in.
That's why you can't use the VIN to determine the sequence the car came down
the line. On a Machine it's the 'W' number on the bottom of the door tag that
determines order of production. The VIN's were numbered according to the order
of the documents sitting on someone's desk - the order in which the paperwork
was completed in other words. AMC was notorious for poor to non-existent
record keeping. That is the single biggest reason there is so much confusion
about what was and was not original on our cars. No PC's meant most day to day
record keeping was done by hand and kept as hard copies much of it hand written.
Our build sheets in Machines are little scraps of paper with a hand written directive
– ‘Mach spec 059”. They were not real build sheets as other manufacturers knew
them. Most of the production standards were processes that were word of mouth. It
was not unheard of for cars to be built to order and then painted the wrong
colour and subsequently refused by the customer. As for production standards, Rebel Machines are
a classic example. The Red, White and Blue cars were supposed to be built with
the first 1,000 in RWB before January 1970. But based on survival rates and
evidence from the Rebel Machine Registry run by Mickey Ziomkowski; that almost
certainly could not have happened. There are not enough pre-January 1 1970 cars
in the registry before the first solid colour cars were built when you compare
those numbers against the total known production. It was specifically noted in
the Press Kit that RWB cars could not and would not be produced with a vinyl
roof but we now know that one was and was butt ugly. It was also stated that
all Machines came with factory ram air and hood tach but we now know that one
Machine was delivered with a regular hood, no scoop, no tach, no pigtail to
hook up to a tach and no evidence that the wire harness had ever been tampered
with. The very first Machine used in all of the advertising shoots was
different in a multitude of ways from the production run and the very last
Rebel Machine built was hand built by the factory and it differed from the
production run in other ways. Throughout the run, there were all sorts of
verified anomalies. There were three production runs of the stripe kits. The
original art from the first run must have been lost because the second run of
stripes was quite different from the first and the third run corrected the
mistakes of the second and reverted back fairly faithfully to the original run.
The variation in interiors is adventure in production standards departures –
they weren’t common but they did exist – mostly because if it meant making a
sale, AMC was hot on the trail. And there were all sorts of ways to put things together
and still be acceptable. Notably, the lever on the highback bucket seats could
go on two different ways. The correct way was with the tab above the pivot
screw. But many were installed upside down. You know they are upside down when
you stop to think about it because in this position they are difficult to operate
and they catch on the clothes of people entering and exiting the back seat. Plus
the correct position is shown in ‘the Mix for the Seventies from American
Motors’ on the 28th (facing) page. Another thing to remember was that if possible,
AMC sold its prototypes. None of the prototypes conformed to production
standards and as a result, some of the prototypes have affected restorations. So
then you have to ask yourself what exactly were the production standards?
Basically they were guidelines that everyone knew would be bent or broken in
certain cases when a sale was on the line. In those days, a departure from
standard did not cause system wide convulsions the way rigid manufacturing
practices do today. The other factor often overlooked is the effect strikes had on materials supply and there were plenty of strikes during that
model year. In those days, strikes were more common in the auto sector than
they are now and the disruptions were often debilitating. In the event of a
strike against a supplier, make do’s were the order of the day. Things didn’t
run anywhere nearly as smoothly back then as the rosy mists of the intervening
years seem to suggest. The 1970 Camaros didn’t appear until half way through
the 1970 model year due to a strike. All of the manufacturers had to contend
with severe supply problems that year. As for product controls, AMC was the best of the
Big Four as they were known then. But even that was dismal by today’s
standards. Fit and finish on domestically produced cars of all types was rough
with the 1970 Corvette winning the Lemon of the Year Award from Seymore Balz of
Cars Magazine for fit and finish. If quality control hadn’t been such an issue,
Ralph Nader wouldn’t have had any ammunition. He took shots at AMC as well as
the rest of them. Plus AMC had some truly horrific production secrets that
eventually became a major factor in their being bought by Chrysler and ensured
that at some point, AMC was going to come to an ignominious end no matter what. Anyway, the bottom line is that production
standards were followed most of the time but there were enough departures
without proper record keeping that ensured that future generations would of
necessity continue to scratch their head in frustration. |
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70 Donohue 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/11/2007 Location: S. Oregon Status: Offline Points: 4338 |
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Does anyone actually know where I can get one can of EN75 blue for my 78 304 besides Eastwood?
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67 Rogue 290 Convert
70 BBO 390 5 Speed Javelin-under construction |
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amcfool1
AMC Addicted Joined: Jun/18/2011 Location: roanoke va Status: Offline Points: 1075 |
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hi, try www.amarkamc.com, good luck, gz
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george z
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scott
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/10/2007 Location: Wildwood Pa. Status: Offline Points: 3502 |
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Seymour (The good folks that make the EN-66) will sell them to you, but you have to buy 600 cans at a time.....
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70 Donohue 390
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/11/2007 Location: S. Oregon Status: Offline Points: 4338 |
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Seymour has dropped EN75 and Amarks looks too blue and darker.
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67 Rogue 290 Convert
70 BBO 390 5 Speed Javelin-under construction |
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Linglingjr
AMC Apprentice Joined: Aug/30/2015 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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What about Earlier AMCs? I've read "The 287s were forum blue poly;the old Ditzler code is 12826. An old time paint vendor should be able to mix you up some. LRDaum"
But this forum blue color is super dark (non metallic) and is the color used on the air cleaner housing as well as the dipstick and tubes. What is the correct metallic color for the rest of the 287? I bought EN-66 thinking it looked super close from photos and it is much darker and greener than the original paint that survived on my starter. This chart from an even more convoluted 7 page thread about engine paint makes the en-66 look to be the closest match. If the seymore cans really vary so extremely much by batch, I guess I shouldn't worry... This is pretty silly.
Edited by Linglingjr - Mar/22/2016 at 1:33am |
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Linglingjr
AMC Apprentice Joined: Aug/30/2015 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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You can get a single can of EN-66 on eBay for $12. Engine rebuild shops should be able to get it for you as well.
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6PakBee
Supporter of TheAMCForum Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 5458 |
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The variation in instrument cluster bezels is a prime example of variations with Machines. |
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Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
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71SC360
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jun/29/2007 Location: East Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 5481 |
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The correct Seymour code for the later (73-78) blue is BU-75. They dropped that paint 30+ years ago but my father was a Seymour distributer and we bought a pallet of it to bring it back about 15 years ago. Because it was a one time "pallet" deal, they did not re-introduce it to their regular paint line. In order for it to be made again, you would have to order and buy a pallet of it (88 cases) and unlike the EN-66 which is 6 can cases, the BU-75 is 12 can cases.
Sorry we don't have any of the BU-75 paint left. Although I might have a few cans around here, it 15+ year old paint now.. |
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6PakBee
Supporter of TheAMCForum Charter Member Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 5458 |
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It looks like they dropped the #93-3 "1969-1970 American Motors Magnum 500 Charcoal Metalflake Wheel Paint" also. |
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Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler 1970 RWB 4-spd Machine 1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX All project cars. Forum Cockroach |
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