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69 AMX coil spring dilemma

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amx39068 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amx39068 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/29/2013 at 10:31pm
I will look around for the other part number.The springs I sent you came out of the same exact car as the ones in my convertible - another convertible.  

There is no way to say if the other ones in the convertible would be any different unless and until I pull them,  These are 45 years old cars and who knows what they have endured over the years. And like you, I can't think of any reason why there were two separate springs in the same car but that is what was in Kirk's car which he is replacing with V8 springs and were removed from his car together just like I will eventually do with my car.

If you want the springs you sent me and want to send mine back, just say the word.  I am sure I will find a use for them on something else and yours are still in the box they came in unopened.

It takes a year or more for the new springs to settle and if you are patient, I am sure you will end up with what you are looking for.


Edited by amx39068 - Jan/29/2013 at 10:35pm
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 7:14am
Never cutting coils is a bit bogus. Cutting coils have been done for years successfully. It is the manner in how it is done that cause a problem if heat is the mechanism.
Never heat a spring.
Heating a spring takes the temper out and torches heat springs.
Then again, a good man with a torch is an artist and can do that with out causing a problem.
A cut off tool can go through a spring with out inducing heat.
A general rule is just that, a generality. And that can cause a problem, but a general rule of thumb is one coil cut off equals 3 inches of drop. And three inches of drop causes no mechanical problem. usually.
I have gone 6 inches of drop using cut springs. It worked, more or less but had an issue with clearance for tie rod ends. It was both accidental from not paying attention to what I started with AND road construction caused the front cross member to bottom out on anything less than paved roads. I solved it by obtaining another set of springs that I knew what they were and taking 3/4 of a coil out.
I had bought a car and took it apart with out first checking what springs were in it in the first place, as it turned out. The wrong ones.
The factory did select different springs for OEM application for different sided depending on what was factory installed.
Aftermarket on the other hand did not.
So if you have two spring pulled from a junk yard car and have no idea what or where they came from other than a junk yard car and they look different?
The odds are they are different and now you have to decide what to do with them.
And personally? I would put them back in the junk yard.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amxdreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 12:59pm
_________________________________________________________________________
 
What I'm saying, or asking Dan. If I use the springs that you sent me, with the two DISTINCT different heights, do the members think my car will sit crooked.(I do). OR! The other 6 cylinder springs with one extra coil (11 compared to my 10) Will the coils be almost touching, and bottom out because the spring is weaker. I don't want to go through all that work, and then have either one of the problems.
 
I wish you had just sent me the springs out of your American, instead of a pair dropped off by Kirk.
 
As far as cutting a coil out. I talked to Laura at Springs 'n Things about that. She told me NEVER cut a coil spring. It takes the temper out of the metal, and could cause big problems. So I'll take her word for it. 
 
Or, hopefully, I can find another spring out of an American with either of the two part numbers in the original post. I think that's my best hope right now...
[/QUOTE]
 
Wow those springs are way different!
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amc67rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 1:33pm
The factory springs in those yrs. had a p/n for the pass. side & one for the drivers side . The springs for the pass. side were longer than the driver side . That was because most of the roads were sloaped toward the pass. side, that was  what was refered to as the crown of the road . The longer spring on the pass side made the car sit level .  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 1:45pm
I might be asking a stupid question, but why are you putting in coil springs out of an 6 cyl American to go into a V8 AMX? APD sells the heavy duty coils for a 68-69 AMX. Kennedy probably does too. I bought them, installed them and they are the correct height. They do have heavy pre-loads and are tricky to install. Is the cost an issue?
DWR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by rockAMX rockAMX wrote:

I might be asking a stupid question, but why are you putting in coil springs out of an 6 cyl American to go into a V8 AMX? APD sells the heavy duty coils for a 68-69 AMX. Kennedy probably does too. I bought them, installed them and they are the correct height. They do have heavy pre-loads and are tricky to install. Is the cost an issue?
____________________
 
Not a stupid question rockAMX, and cost is not the issue, or wouldn't keep buying used springs till I find a matched set. LOL. The car sits to high in front to suit me. Look at the picture of my BBG next to the yellow AMX. Our cars sit dead even in the rear, but mine sits much higher than the yellow one in front. There is nothing wrong with my heavy duty springs in there now. So I don't need new springs. I want to drop the front end about 2". It will look better, and its an old drag racing trick that others and myself used back in the 70's. Put in American springs, and 90/10 drag racing shocks. When you dump the clutch, or with a good torque converter, it picks the front end right up in the air, and transfers the weight to the back. So it serves to purposes here. Lower it, and better weight transfer...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by uncljohn uncljohn wrote:

Never cutting coils is a bit bogus. Cutting coils have been done for years successfully. It is the manner in how it is done that cause a problem if heat is the mechanism.
Never heat a spring.
Heating a spring takes the temper out and torches heat springs.
Then again, a good man with a torch is an artist and can do that with out causing a problem.
A cut off tool can go through a spring with out inducing heat.
A general rule is just that, a generality. And that can cause a problem, but a general rule of thumb is one coil cut off equals 3 inches of drop. And three inches of drop causes no mechanical problem. usually.
I have gone 6 inches of drop using cut springs. It worked, more or less but had an issue with clearance for tie rod ends. It was both accidental from not paying attention to what I started with AND road construction caused the front cross member to bottom out on anything less than paved roads. I solved it by obtaining another set of springs that I knew what they were and taking 3/4 of a coil out.
I had bought a car and took it apart with out first checking what springs were in it in the first place, as it turned out. The wrong ones.
The factory did select different springs for OEM application for different sided depending on what was factory installed.
Aftermarket on the other hand did not.
So if you have two spring pulled from a junk yard car and have no idea what or where they came from other than a junk yard car and they look different?
The odds are they are different and now you have to decide what to do with them.
And personally? I would put them back in the junk yard.



It's the heat........... so IMO, the "general rule" is around to cover those who take a torch and spend 5 minutes cutting and get 10 inches of the spring too hot.
I used to use the torch to cut exhaust pipes - I could slice one pipe either off or or out of another and hardly get the good pipe hot. Easier, faster, quieter and cleaner than an air chisel. When I had better eyes and a steady hand I could slice some parts off pretty thin metals and not get things so hot I couldn't work on them.
I don't advocate cutting for reasons other than heat, but hey, it's been done............... and with success so can't say "never" or "always".
Ha, if Never or Always were the rule, AMC would have never won any races.

Now, can someone with a parts book and a great memory tell me which models and years of AMCs had TWO different part numbers for springs to be used - one for the left, and another DIFFERENT part number for the right?

I've seen cases of a spring on one side settling more than the other side after a number of years. I've seen such cars going down the road - an obvious spring problem on one side.

So, I guess when IN the car, it's a problem, when out of the car, I'd have to check the parts book

>>And three inches of drop causes no mechanical problem. usually.<<

Wow, 3 inches? Yeah it can and often does lead to troubles. At least it caused problems in the cars I've dealt with over 40 years of time, clearances, geometry, etc. I experienced such a thing with far less drop a few months ago. Camber was not adjustable to spec, caster was so far off I'd have been at the ends of the threads, parts started rubbing, and the bottoming bumpers wore the control arms shiny in spots.  It was all due to incorrect springs under the car. Was told they were from a "1970 AMX" - ok, then I'll assume V8 springs, and that means they'd work in an Eagle. WRONG. Did that baby drop. Not 3", but nearly 2" and it caused no end of troubles.
3" is a ton of drop with no other changes.
IMO cutting the coils to change height is easier on the trunnion cars - the later cars the top coils wind in to a smaller diameter to fit and the bottom end needs to fit the spring support so the end of the coil is all but at the end of the recess in the spring support.
But then I ask - why not just spec springs to the need and have the correct rate, good ride, and not worry about bump steering, braking performance problems, and other weird stuff.
"It went down the road fine" isn't the same as safe geometry that will behave in expected ways under adverse conditions.

Anyway - back to springs of different heights - yeah, the factory didn't use matched pairs in all applications. Aftermarket said @#$% it and made fewer part numbers and sold 'em in pairs.
(the factory never did completely properly solve the slight "lean" issue we had with our brand new special order Eagle wagon back then. It lost one service manager his job and it got upper level factory reps involved. They got it "close enough" for us finally and we lived with a slightly uneven look.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by amc67rogue amc67rogue wrote:

The factory springs in those yrs. had a p/n for the pass. side & one for the drivers side . The springs for the pass. side were longer than the driver side . That was because most of the roads were sloaped toward the pass. side, that was  what was refered to as the crown of the road . The longer spring on the pass side made the car sit level .  


That's it - wish I'd have seen and read your post first.
It was a difference you could see in the springs.
Yes, and due to road crown, alignment was done differently back then as well.
One part number for the left, another for the right.
Different parts of the country had varying percentages of roads with steep crowns. They used to be the rule here. In the older areas, it's hard to get out of the car when you park along the side of the road, you climb up and out. Around here it was drainage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by jackdk jackdk wrote:

Originally posted by rockAMX rockAMX wrote:

I might be asking a stupid question, but why are you putting in coil springs out of an 6 cyl American to go into a V8 AMX? APD sells the heavy duty coils for a 68-69 AMX. Kennedy probably does too. I bought them, installed them and they are the correct height. They do have heavy pre-loads and are tricky to install. Is the cost an issue?
____________________
 
Not a stupid question rockAMX, and cost is not the issue, or wouldn't keep buying used springs till I find a matched set. LOL. The car sits to high in front to suit me. Look at the picture of my BBG next to the yellow AMX. Our cars sit dead even in the rear, but mine sits much higher than the yellow one in front. There is nothing wrong with my heavy duty springs in there now. So I don't need new springs. I want to drop the front end about 2". It will look better, and its an old drag racing trick that others and myself used back in the 70's. Put in American springs, and 90/10 drag racing shocks. When you dump the clutch, or with a good torque converter, it picks the front end right up in the air, and transfers the weight to the back. So it serves to purposes here. Lower it, and better weight transfer...


My worry would be the compression rate of a 6 cylinder spring versus a heavy duty V8 spring. Some of the posts allude to that. Obviously the 6 cylinder spring is for a lighter front end with less force in braking. Do both cars in your comparison have 15" wheels?
DWR
1968 AMX

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/30/2013 at 3:35pm

My worry would be the compression rate of a 6 cylinder spring versus a heavy duty V8 spring. Some of the posts allude to that. Obviously the 6 cylinder spring is for a lighter front end with less force in braking. Do both cars in your comparison have 15" wheels?
[/QUOTE]
_________________________________________________
 
The other car has 14" wheels, and tires close to the stock E70 size. With the 90/10 shocks, the downward force is really tuff. So tuff, you have a hard to pushing the shock back in by hand. But to pull the piston out to its length, its like butter. 90% down force 10% up. So that will help with braking when you end the quarter mile at 120 mph or so, and have to stop. Never had problems years ago, with handling or stopping at all.
69 BBG AMX #09007 "If it's to loud! Your to old!:"    jax-AMXpress@msn.com
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