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Pull engine w/tranny or without |
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capitol76
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jun/02/2010 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 204 |
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Posted: Nov/21/2010 at 8:42am |
69 AMX 4 speed, 390. I will be pulling my first engine. What is the consensus on whether it is better/easier to pull the engine and transmission as a unit, leave transmission and bell housing in car and just pull engine or drop transmission and then pull engine?
To further show my ignorance, is there any reason not to take the hood off before starting or is it just as easy just to leave it on? |
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DesertAMX
AMC Apprentice Joined: Aug/10/2010 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Personally, I would remove the 4 Speed from underneath before removing the engine. You will need to remove the hood to get clearance for the boom of the engine hoist. Hook up the hoist before removing the transmission so the engine is supported safely without the rear mount.
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69 BBG AMX
69 BBO Javelin Project Cactus Cruisers AMC |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Check around, do some searching and reading here - I don't think you will find a concensus..
except on one thing - the hood must always come off. There's simply no way around it, nor would you want to try leaving it on! You'll start and within 30 minutes see why it needs to come off - it will then be obvious.
If it was a stick, I'd leave the transmission either in the car, or pull it with the engine.
Of all the engines I've pulled, I've never pulled the transmission first from below, then the engine.
(and I used to do it for a living, removing and rebuilding many many dozens if not hundreds of engines and/or transmissions.)
I either pull it with the engine, or leave the transmission under the car with the bell housing.
If pulling only the engine, I always remove the bell housing bolts and leave the bell with the transmission, be it stick or automatic with divorced bell housing.
If pulling both, you need some radical tip to the engine and I STRONGLY suggest one of those engine levelers!! I'd not pull the engine and transmission together without a leveler. You'll see why on that, too.
The other option - drop it all out the bottom!
Support the upper control arms with blocks of wood, raise the car, remove the inner lower control arms, wire the steering arms/spindles up out of the way, remove the draglink and tie rods. Remove the 4 crossmember bolts and studs, remove the rear crossmember nuts, lower engine and transmission down onto dollies, lift the car up, and slide the powerplant out.
However, my bet is you arne't equipped with that much stuff - takes some jacks, a transmission jack, dollies and a way to lift the car pretty high. Edited by billd - Nov/21/2010 at 9:14am |
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stonedblue
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/13/2008 Location: AMCville,Pa. Status: Offline Points: 511 |
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I haven't the experience of billd, but I have done both ways and with the leveler it wasn't tough to pull both at the same time. I installed the 360/t-400 as one piece in a Javelin and it was easier than the install of a 258 into a Concord with the trans already in the car. Getting to the bellhouse bolts without the car on a lift was a PITA. I built an engine cradle for the v8 that holds it by the side mount bosses so I can install the flexplate, trans and tighten the converter without hanging from a chain.
My personal opinion is remove/install as one unit, unless you have a car lift.
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I can build an engine, but, I can't drain oil without a mess.'04Ram,'99Plym.Van,"96Exploder,'79Dodge pickup, '71Jav. '68Jav, and '90 Gold Rush trailer
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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A stick is actually a bit harder, IMO, as you have to line up the input shaft into the clutch disk, and the splines need to line up, etc.
Much easier as a unit with a leveler. They are worth their weight in gold, IMO.
The idea of a cradle to hold the engine while putting the other pieces on the back is a great idea - I used dollys and the transmission jack (if interested in the "up from the bottom" method, see my post on the Eagle heart transplant where I put the engine, transmission and transfer case all in from the bottom by myself - it's up and in, and 8 bolts, and she's in, except for putting the front suspension back in place. However, you do NOT need to go as far as I did - I was replacing springs and bushings, too, at the same time, so removed the entire front suspenstion.
In your case, first timeer and all - I'd do as stonedblue did - go get a leveler, and do the whole unit out the top, transmission and engine together, and not fight the input shaft into clutch issues while under the car. It's a breeze to do it that way.
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bcsideshow
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: May/19/2010 Location: Kenosha Status: Offline Points: 1228 |
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I have done it both ways as well. I prefer to pull and place the engine and trans together. I do not have a leveler. I placed the lift hook just forward of center of the chain. I did it by myself but makes it a whole lot easier if you have two people t help guide the trans. You will want to drain trans fluid prior or it will pour out the rear. I placed a creeper under the car for the tail shaft to land on and slide back as I installed it. Good luck.
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1969 SCRambler "B"
1970 AMX 390 Auto 1968 AMX 390 Auto 1970 Rebel Machine Project 1969 AMX 390 4SPD Project 1969 AMX 390 Auto Project 1969 Javelin 390 project 1997 Cherokee lifted 1998 TJ Lifted |
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amx39068
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Feb/21/2008 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 11576 |
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I do not agree. You will beat the crap out of your firewall the fist time you do it if you have the tranny attached. Until you've seen how much the rear of the engine drops when you pop it off the engine mounts, you will be unaware of how much you need to crank the leveler to accomodate the extra weight and the back of the block will put crush marks on your firewall. Pull the tranny the first time and make your life much easier.
Either way, you are much better off it you have a spare drive shaft yoke whehter you you leave the tranny attached or not. When you tilt the engine and tranny or just when you pull the tranny it will pour tranny fluid, standard or auto, all over the floor.
And you MUST take the hood off as there is no way to get even the engine high enough on the hoist to clear the radiator support with the hood on.
Putting either tranny in from underneath is a pain but not that big of a deal if you have a motorcycle jack or something similar to can rest it on but it will go in much easier with two people. The clutch issue is also a non issue with either a pilot tool or if you simply use the tips of your fingers to to align the clutch disc evenly all the way around the edge of the pressure plate. I have done it well over a dozen times and it works every time perfectly so that all you need to do is put the tranny in gear and rotate the yoke a little to align the input shaft ridges with the detents in the clutch disk.
If you want to put them together to and install as a single unit, make sure you have plenty of ceiling clearance and a big hoist fully extended. You will need to lift it really high to get it in so that the tranny tail shaft fully clears the upper radiator support plus you need to angle the heck out of it when pushing the hoist backto get the engine in the engine bay in order for the same tail shaft to clean the firewall and also have the oil pan on the engine clear the same upper raditor support. I have done it both ways multiple times and actually prefer to do the tranny from underneath if I have a lift and as a single unit on the way in if I only have a hoist and jack stands. Regardless, I always pull the tranny before removing the engine. If you do the same, just be sure you don't hang the tranny on the input shaft through the clutch disc in order to not bow the input shaft or warp the clutch disk.
Ask me how I know? Edited by amx39068 - Nov/21/2010 at 10:23am |
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Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Interesting - all the ones I've done and have never ever pulled a transmission first.
I used snap-on clutch disk alignment tool and it's not just the alignment, it's the splines that need to mesh. Even with an aligmnet tool, there's a bit of wiggle room and you'll find some not a simple "slip in" deal.
I've also used a creeper to catch the tail of the transmission while it's going in. If you drain it first, you really won't have much of an issue, but I've even put a pan on a creeper when pulling the units and let it follow the tail of the transmission.
Honestly, I haven't damaged any firewalls yet.
Maybe it's because of how picky and particular I am - remember, it took me a chunk of an afternoon to get the eagle engine up and in - in part because I wasn't wanting to scratch any paint (LOL, as if THAT car would matter!) With both arms good, it could have been in in less than half that tmie.
With two people the transmission/engine as one unit is a snap, honestly.
Guess I'm a bit confused on why one would need to pull a tramsission first?? Why not leave it in place if pulling engine only?
Take Luke's Eagle as an example - pulled the engine and left the transmission in place, an auto. It's no simple matter pulling an Eagle transmission! It's probably as complex as they get, and it's REALLY tight and trouble working with the unbalanced load of the t-case, with no flat or even bottom to work with. So I leave the transmission/t-case in place, or pull it all out the bottom.
I guess since 1973 I've never pulled a transmission first, then the engine. It's either all as one, or just the engine. It's not that hard with long extensions and flex sockets to get bell housing bolts, or using offset wrenches from the top.
ALL of my engine jobs, removing, putting in, etc. have been done NO hoist! Even in the pro-shops I worked in, engine jobs were done back in the corner, we never put them on a hoist. So I've always done it with jacks and stands. And I do not have a hoist or lift. All on jack stands with my HOME MADE engine hoist, HOME MADE gantry crane (which I'v only had for 1 year)
No fancy tools, all inexpensive stuff, no hoist, floor jacks and stands.
(keep in mind, I do almost all my engine pulling and putting back in by myself, and always have, from the first Opal clutch replacement in my parents garage when I was 14 up to now, except when we were in a hurry on Luke's car and our neighbor lended a hand. And my Eagle I've done all myself, putting it back in with the full use of only 1 arm - I wasn't able to use my left arm to push or pull anything.... might say, I put that engine in single-handed - LOL - I did pretty much all of it with my right arm only - and I'm left-handed.)
Anyway, since 1973 not a firewall damaged, no wires pulled or cut, no lines smashed or dinged. That's on all brands, including Porsche and VW and Datsun, Honda, AMC/Rambler/Eagle/Jeep, Lincoln, Mercury, boom trucks to motorcycles......
Your mileage may vary - but I think folks know how bloody picky and concerned about scratches or dents that I am - and if I'd do it on my own cars........ Edited by billd - Nov/21/2010 at 10:36am |
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SKeown
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/30/2009 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 3085 |
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Start with the front tires on ramps anf stands under rear. Remove the radiator and hood, get a hoist fron Harbour Freight and recruite a friend. I have a speedo cable cut at the flange that goes into the tranny and fit double latex glooves over the tailshaft with the fingers inside out. Wrap a heavy towell or two around the tranny to avoid scuffing the firewall and remove and install as a unit. The engine lift plates that bolt to the intake manifold should be suspended from the front hole, and will require some mussling by the second person.
Once the engine is back in sitting on the mounts, jack up the tranny, install the crossmember, hood and radiator. At that point you can finish up alone.
SKeown Edited by SKeown - Nov/21/2010 at 11:14am |
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gwryder
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jun/30/2009 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Alot of good advice here. There are many techniques. I personally pull the engine and transmission together. Always remember to place bolts and nuts back for easier assembly and mark wires to where they go.
Here's my take.
With a helper, lift the engine and use the leveler to angle the engine for clearance. The engine will be lifted pretty high to get clearance. Have the helper stabilize the end of transmission.
Once the engine is out, removing the transmission is easy. Remove the bell housing and remember to place all bolts back for reference. Prepare the engine for an engine stand and remove the Flywheel. Remember to mark the Flywheel position on the crank.
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John
70 AMX |
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