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Head flow

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SuperStockAMX View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2010 at 6:50pm
Sorry Ken, but the flow of the posts seemed to go around the 300'ish numbers that I was stating and seemed long removed from the 362 CFM discussion on a pair of production heads. It wasn't clear what numbers you were talking about when you posted at 10:21 today. I think if you re-read that post you might understand where I was coming from. 
If you can see the possibility of 300 +/- , then I apologize. The problems are almost always a result of not being able to communicate between 2 or more people on a post vs. having a real conversation. I tend to be a lot more direct when writing than verbally, as I'm sure is the case with you. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2010 at 6:56pm
Here are some pictures of some stock AMC molds. From left to right:

304, 390 rectangular, 401 dog leg, Edelbrock, Trapezoid (distorted and not fully filled) Indy SR



And here a few closer pics of the stock, trapezoid, and SR




It's hard to see, but there is a lot more area through the middle on the trapezoid. The Indy looks a lot different doesn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2010 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by DragRacingSpirit DragRacingSpirit wrote:

270 cfm out of unported iron casting doesn't sound possible to me.
 
When you say unported I assume that you mean a die grinder has never touched them in any way and the ports are exactly the way they left the factory ?
 
So what you are saying is that you can go to a junkyard, pull off an iron AMC head of whatever casting number, clean them up/recondition them to 100% stock specs, do a fancy valve job and get them to flow a peak number of 270 cfm on the intake port ?
 
I'm sorry but if I see it on my porters flow bench with my own eyes I will believe it. 

Oh but it is possible and when I set the E/S record @ 10.72 @ 124.58 MPH@ 3,320 #'s that's exactly what was on the 390 and was checked for legality by NHRA. A random head is selected and pulled off and completely torn apart and inspected for proper angles, chamber volume, port volume, valve head and stem diameters. You can't even port match.
Most people that are not accustomed to NHRA Stock or Super stock racing find it hard to believe these cars do what they with the limitations placed on them. Just ask that Ken Hadley guy on "Pass Time". When a S/SS car comes on the show he can't begin to make an educated guess on what the car will run. His reactions are funny. 
Valves are not stock OEM but custom made stainless with valve angles and seat angles that are spec'ed and machined by the machinist. It's a labor intensive task of trying a new angle and flowing, trying another angle and flowing. Over and over. And when it's all said and done, a pair of heads ready to bolt on will set you back about $4500. No, it's not for a bracket racer. It would be a waste of time and money on a bracket car. But it is possible. You just have to want it real bad. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2010 at 8:00pm
 
 Jeff, if they didn't catch the exhaust crossovers being welded up, I doubt the tech had a clue what he was looking at in the first place. One thing I do know, you wouldn't hesitste to cheat and then lie about it!!
 
 SKeown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beepbeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 12:40am
Ken Parkman, I asked for your opinion and I Thank You for giving it. Watching the remarkable claims of high flow numbers over the years {the higher numbers never had any porting done} There's one conclusion. Obviously no one paying to have a head flowed is being told the truth. I've flowed a good selection of AMC heads and have a good baseline to compare. No stock production 390 head flows 270 cfm with only the seats screwed with.       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 7:30am
Originally posted by SuperStockAMX SuperStockAMX wrote:

To say one person is the end all in cylinder head (AMC or otherwise) work, is fooling oneself. That goes for anything in life. Just because some of you can't find 270 CFM on un-ported 2.02" / 1.68" heads (which held the National Record and were completely inspected for legality by accomplished tech members of NHRA), does not make the job impossible. Like you said, Ken, you do have room to learn and I hope you get there someday.  And I imagine my engine builder would put you to shame on cylinder head work on any level; not to mention the rest of the engine. He's 58 years old and has been doing this since he was a teen. Since you don't want to believe me and you really do think 300+ CFM is out of touch with reality on an AMC production head, call up Adkins and Allen and tell them you have a bridge to sell also. Because they have -291 & -993 production heads going low 9's at 143 or so with 3200 # cars. . 
Stickshifter, I see you have made improvements to the car and ar now only .15 away from the formula of 1320 / MPH = optimum ET which you previously stated wouldn't work. I believe the last time we discussed this you were running 8.25's or so. Congratulations, you're getting there. 7.95 is still obtainable @ 166 MPH. Good luck. 

Jeff it doesn't take you long at all to discredit poeple does it?Clapyour 1st post in this subject and almost every response thereafter...again if you want to discredit people then it would be more in line for you to discredit someone with their car on jackstands that have not raced in years...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel25A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 7:53am
LOL...
URL=http://www.mybannermaker.com/link.php?nurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mybannermaker.com][/URL]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanchez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 9:24am
I have spoken with Rick Kemph, he worked for Mullin and Co back when they did the pro stock stuff for Booth, he has all the specs from back then and looked up a set for me, back then they flowed heads at a different depression so he converted it to 28 and said it was about 340 or so. I know that peak flow is not a good indication of hp potential for a head as it is only at peak once and is at lower lifts twice, you can get two heads on the same bench that flow 300cfm at .700 lift and it is quite possible to install on the same engine with the same camshaft and have one set make much more hp because the low lift numbers/port velocity were way better on it.
As a general rule you need x amount of airflow to make x amount of hp, you can get that flow from low lifts and peak lifts and everywhere in between. That's where the cam comes into play, utilising what you have and optimising it for your heads.
 
This is only my opinion so take it as that.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amx39068 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Hurst390 Hurst390 wrote:

Jeff it doesn't take you long at all to discredit poeple does it?Clapyour 1st post in this subject and almost every response thereafter...again if you want to discredit people then it would be more in line for you to discredit someone with their car on jackstands that have not raced in years...
 
Originally posted by SKeown SKeown wrote:

 
 Jeff, if they didn't catch the exhaust crossovers being welded up, I doubt the tech had a clue what he was looking at in the first place. One thing I do know, you wouldn't hesitste to cheat and then lie about it!!
 
 SKeown
 
Pretty interesting comments that seem to be consistent with what I have heard around the Pheonix area as well.
Dan Curtis-Owner and CEO AZ AMC Restorations; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amcmusclecars/ & Curtis Real Estate Development
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Class Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2010 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by SKeown SKeown wrote:

 
 Jeff, if they didn't catch the exhaust crossovers being welded up, I doubt the tech had a clue what he was looking at in the first place.
 
 SKeown
Exhaust crossovers being welding is perfectly okay as long as any work done does not extend into the port.  Quote from NHRA rule book, "Heat riser passage may be blocked from the intake manifold side of the cylinder head.  Blocking passage down in the valve pocket is prohibited."  They do not limit how to block the heat riser passage.  Over the years, I have used furnace cement, molten aluminum, plaster of paris (my favorite), and welding.  I have never had a cylinder head kicked out in tech.  Over the years, I have been reponsible for 57 national records being set, 43 national event class wins, 31 divisional races won and 5 national event wins.
I just want to clarify that point.  As for the rest of y'all's backbiting, poor-mouthing conversation, have at it.


Edited by Class Guy - May/12/2010 at 12:36pm
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