Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.
|
Cylinder Head Flow Numbers: Factory/Aftermarket |
Post Reply |
Author | |
Steve_P
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jun/28/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3805 |
Topic: Cylinder Head Flow Numbers: Factory/Aftermarket Posted: Jul/09/2007 at 12:12am |
This will be the thread for flow data on AMC Cylinder Heads. All data is at 28" H2O unless otherwise noted.
This first group of info was posted by Ken Parkman:
More testing on the flow bench today AMC 2.02 valve heads: Intake: 291 090 502 .100 71 74 70 .200 127 156 143 .300 179 201 192 .400 209 219 213 .500 217 226 220 .600 222 232 228 .700 228 238 236 Exhaust: .100 55 56 59 .200 107 112 113 .300 135 141 146 .400 142 145 150 .500 145 149 152 .600 145 150 153 .700 145 151 153 The 291's are 3196291, 1970 51 cc chamber heads, the 090's are 1973 58 cc heads, and the 502's are 3220502 1974 60 cc heads, I have tested an example of all 3 combustion chamber sizes. The 291 and 090 heads have a multi angle valve seat, the 502's are utterly stock. There is no porting on any of these. They were all tested as identical as I could make it - same port, valves, inlet radius plate, flow bench, day, operator, and bench temperature. The correction factor for the bench temperature is a reduction of 1.6%, I couldn't be bothered adding it in. The shrouding on the 291 heads really hurts the flow, it really surprised me. The later 60 cc chamber heads probably flow the best, I figure a valve job would make up the little difference with the 090 heads. Interesting stuff, I'm not answering the phone in case they want the flowbench back. Figure I can stall them a few more days. Can't add anything on the X heads Jeff. Have a small valve set with an X on them, but can see no differences. Have a single 993 head here, it has no X. Did some valve job work on the 050 casting, performing the conventional hi-performance multi-angle seat on the test port. This seat is extremely similar to that on the 291 head tested. This was cut with stones because my buddy didn't have a cutter for a 30 degree seat. We then cut the next port with his trickest 45 degree seat radius edge custom cutter, makes a magnificent looking seat with no edges between the multi angles. This is the seat in some books as the trickest and best to use. Here are some results: Test 1 2 3 4 5 .100 70.3 69.1 67.8 61.5 61.5 .200 143.0 138.5 138.5 126.2 125.1 .300 192.1 193.2 194.4 186.5 185.4 .400 212.6 222.4 224.4 220.5 220.5 .500 220.5 224.4 226.4 226.4 228.3 .600 228.3 230.3 234.3 228.3 232.3 .700 236.2 236.2 238.2 236.2 236.2 Test 1: Utterly Stock, as above with an extra digit Test 2: Multi angle valve job Test 3: As test 2 except edges of angles lightly radiused Test 4: 45 degree seat, trick radius cutter, 'tulip' valve Test 5: Same seat, performance valve, reduced stem, backcut Both 4 and 5 were on a different port, and I don't have a baseline for this port. Conclusions: A 45 degree seat is a real good way to hurt flow below .500 lift. A multi angle valve seat will help flow at mid lifts but hurts a bit at low lift. The trick performance valve did help a bit at high lift, but it hurt at low lift. The valve and seat have almost nothing to do with flow at very high lift. Big conclusion - a stock setup works friggin good. A couple of other bits of info - had a big dollar AFR small block Chev, 2.08 valve, ported by an "expert", that came with an almost to good to be true flowsheet. It was too good to be true, I didn't get anything like the same flow. Buyer beware. Had an almost stock TFS 2.02 valve small block Ford on the machine, and it gave shockingly good numbers, nearly the same as the AFR. The 2.08 valve in the AFR did give better low and mid lift flow. Man I love this machine, am I ever learning a lot. Here is the next set of test data. I went to a 2.05 valve to try to get some low lift flow back with the 45 degree seat. Then I did very minor pocket porting in the 3 different valve/seat combo's to see what that shows. This is all on the 502 head. Test 1: 2.05" valve with 30 degree backcut, 45 degree seat, nothing else touched Test 2: Same with minor pocket porting Test 3: As test 5 yesterday (2.02 valve, 45 seat) with minor pocket porting Test 4: As test 3 yesterday (2.02 valve, 30 seat) with minor pocket porting 1 2 3 4 .100 68 68 62 77 .200 137 137 127 150 .300 191 197 190 202 .400 221 234 228 232 .500 224 232 232 232 .600 228 236 238 238 .700 232 240 240 242 Conclusions: with a 45 degree seat even a 2.05 valve does not get back the low lift flow of a stock valve when both have good valve jobs. With minor pocket porting a stock valve still works better. With the rest of the port stock max lift flow changes with all of this are almost insignificant. A little pocket porting gives nice gains in the mid lift range. Big conclusion: AMC must have known something when they designed this port - it works real well! I've also had a sbc double hump head and a sbd 'J' head up on the machine, neither can touch an AMC - by a bunch! Here are some comparison numbers for sbc and sbd Lift / AMC 502 / Chev 370 / Dodge 'J' Intake .100 70 60 55 .200 143 122 112 .300 192 167 161 .400 213 190 198 .500 220 199 210 .600 228 203 205 .700 236 203 Exhaust .100 59 40 49 .200 113 80 106 .300 146 114 125 .400 150 128 132 .500 152 135 134 .600 153 143 136 .700 153 Testing tonight has been dissapointing. I've machined the throats, narrowed the guide bosses, and machined the chamber to unshroud the valves, testing each time. For the most part I've gotten nothing in flow increases, and some loss in low lift flow with the 2.02 valves, but the 2.05 valve did show a little gain, and it liked the unshrouding, showing slight low lift improvement, almost up to a stock valve. It also now shows the best flow by a smitch, at 248. Conclusion: Air doesn't know it should flow more with "obvious" port improvements, so it doesn't. The 502 head with a 2.02 valve doesn't need any unshrouding. A stock valve is still pretty hard to beat. I have seen as much gains in the bowl as I am going to. Now to go looking elsewhere. Maybe some of tonight’s mods may have helped if the rest of the port flowed better. Here's tonight's flow numbers. I'm sticking to one port now because I am running out of time. Tonight I smoothed the cast port surface, up til now it's been completely untouched. This is not polishing, just smoothing the surface. Then I opened the pushrod pinch a bit, sizing the cross sectional area for a 6000 rpm 401, maximizing velocity. I did not enlarge the port, because I am shooting for a certain velocity. Test 1 2 3 4 .100 68 69 69 68 .200 136 142 142 140 .300 198 200 201 201 .400 236 238 246 246 .500 242 240 252 256 .600 242 246 256 258 .700 248 250 260 264 Test 1: Throat machined and valve guide boss narrowed Test 2: Combustion chamber unshrouded with a 2.4" cutter Test 3: Cast wall surface smoothed Test 4: Pushrod pinch sized Conclusion - the numbers are coming around nicely. This is not radical race porting, this is for a street 401. Once again the AMC is proving to be an excellent design. Now to go for the details that make or break a port. For a 45 degree seat I bore the throat .200 smaller than the valve diameter. On a 30 degree seat I make the throat .020 or .030 smaller than that. Intensive testing session tonight, I'm losing the flowbench in the morning. Here is the end result, compared to stock. the head is a 502 large chamber head that started with a 60 cc chamber, and now has a 2.05 1.68 valve combination. Lift, Intake Stock and Ported, Exhaust Stock and Ported .100 70 69 59 56 .200 143 141 113 111 .300 192 201 146 172 .400 213 248 150 178 .500 220 260 152 185 .600 228 266 153 190 .700 236 272 153 193 I'm real happy with this port, because I did not raise it or make it big. This is sized for max velocity in a 6000 rpm 401 so it should make a great torque curve. This should be an awesome street head. The exhaust was flowed without the bellmouthed pipe on the exhaust that is recommended, so the exhaust flow might be a little low, but these are the numbers I've got. It was wild how incredibly small tweaks could HUGE effects at mid lift on the exhaust. Here unshrouding made a big improvement. Here is my stupidly ported intake and exhaust, I would not run this, this was just an exercise in how far I could push it. If you need flow like this by an Aluminum head. Lift Intake Exhaust .100 74 50 .200 146 104 .300 210 154 .400 258 188 .500 289 211 .600 297 226 .700 305 229 This was with a 2.10 1.65 valve combination. Yep, I flowed the intakes on a head Steve, and on a stock 291 that is exactly what I found, 2-3%. On a max ported head a stock torker hurt the flow to the tune of about 8%, but working on the torker brought it back to about 3%. The air gap on a mild ported head took nearly 14% off the flow, where a R4B was 8% and a stock cast iron was 9.5%. Most of this (except the air gap, and I did baseline a R4B to double check) was a while ago, and was all on the same upper port to try to be consistant. With what I have recently learned I would like to do it again, checking both the upper and lower halves of the dual plane's. We did that to a BBC intake, and found never make any assumptions because the lower half flowed WAY better than the upper half. 4/15/2004 Somehow I've ended up with 2 sets of 291 heads here that I am porting for board members. It wasn't my plan to do much porting, because it is too much work for not enough money, but due to a couple of situations here I am. So I thought I would post some flow data during the process if you guys are not tired of it. Next test with the basic work on the mill. I sized the throats correctly for the new valves, did the most minor unshrouding, but that got rid of the machined lip in the combustion chamber a 291 has. Also used the mill to square the port opening and size the pushrod pinch. Just a little bigger, trying to target velocity for about a 6500 rpm max 360. Then I did basic blending of this machine work. On the exhaust I did basic hand porting of the throat. Here are the results: Ken_Parkman on Mar 29th, 2004, 12:06am wrote: Edelbrock head flow Date: Friday, March 12, 2004 10:04 AM The published air flow on the new Edelbrock heads is now available. From my understanding it will be May before any heads are released. At any rate, here are the flow figures. .100 lift, intake 65 cfm, exhaust 52 cfm .200 lift, intake 130 cfm, exhaust 96 cfm .300 lift, intake 192 cfm, exhaust 127cfm .400 lift, intake 235 cfm, exhaust 163 cfm .500 lift, intake 258 cfm, exhaust 182 cfm .600 lift, intake 260 cfm, exhaust 190 cfm Edited by Steve_P - Jul/09/2007 at 12:23am |
|
RADAMX
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jul/09/2007 Location: Tucson Az. Status: Offline Points: 188 |
Posted: Jul/13/2007 at 7:02am |
Just thought I would share My Indy old 401-1 #'s
flowed at 28 inches radius intake .No pipe or stub on the exh
list intake Exhaust
.100 54.5 60.1
.200 131.5 112.1
.300 196.8 153
.400 252.7 184.8
.500 299.4 211.4
.600 339.9 234.1
.700 360.4 248.7
.800 259.4
.900 266.9
I think I picked up the intake #'s a couple of cfm.All I could find was this old flow sheet from 03/04
|
|
74Bubblefender
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jun/29/2007 Location: The AMC form Status: Offline Points: 2589 |
Posted: Jul/30/2007 at 2:23am |
Raw, unported stock heads. 3231475 (and -2) from 1978-1985 used in all AMC V8 360 3220502 (and -2) from 1974-1977 Used in AMC 360 and 401 3196291-C Used only in 1970 390 and 71' 401 N/A means their was simply too much turbulence to measure accurately. Edelbrock heads no valve size change ported
Intake 2.02, Exhaust 1.60....11/32 stem, back cut valves 54ccs Average flow intake 236.6, Max 275CFM Average flow exhaust 179.1 Max 214CFM Lift.....Exhaust...Intake .200 106 134 .300 145 182 .350 163 218 .400 176 244 .450 190 259 .500 200 270 .550 206 274 .600 212 274 .650 214 275 Now with 2.080 Intake valves and a little more exhaust work
Average flow intake 253.5 Max 296CFM Average flow exhaust 182.1 Max 216CFM Lift.....Exhaust...Intake .200 113 143 .300 149 202 .350 167 231 .400 181 254 .450 191 273 .500 201 278 .550 207 280 .600 214 286 .650 216 292 .700 .... 296 Finally got a chance to flow my AMC 090 heads this evening. As some of you know I've been working on these for quite some time. To date, I have installed hardened exhaust seats and opened up the throat with a piloted cutter to match the seat ID (about .100" larger diameter throat), but have not blended this plunged cut into the bowls yet. The 3 angle valve job is done with a 2.025d intake valve on a 30deg seat and 1.68d exhaust valve on a 45deg seat. I have opened up the chambers by unshrouding the valves, used a fly cutter to open the radius of the chamber, blended all the machine cuts in by hand grinding, and also tuliped the intake valves for more CC's - alot of hard work to get this done but all of the chambers now measure 64.5cc's. I have also gasket matched the intake ports and ground down any casting flash out of the intake and exhaust runners. Here are my Superflow bench results and stock 090 and Edelbrock head numbers for comparison: Intake (28") Lift, Edel, S090, My 090's 100, 65, 74, 85 200, 130, 156, 160 300, 192, 201, 210 400, 235, 219, 225 500, 258, 226, 230 600, 260, 232, 238 AVG, 190, 185, 191 My intake numbers are typical for a 30deg valve seat (Edel have 45deg seat). I attribute the improvement over stock at low lift primarily to unshrouding the valves. Exhaust (25") Lift, Edel, S090, My 090's 100, 52, 56, 53 200, 96, 112, 103 300, 127, 141, 142 400, 163, 145, 163 500, 182, 149, 169 600, 190, 150, 175 AVG, 135, 126, 134 As you can see, even with the rough edge that currently exists in my exhaust bowls, opening the throats made a big difference over stock at high lift and even keeps up with the stock Edelbrocks up to .400" lift. I expect to see better numbers overall once I am through blending in my machining and working on the bowls. I'll post back final numbers when I am finished. PS: I'm not sure how many inches of water vacuum were used to test the Edlebrock or stock heads (I used 28int and 25exh) so this may not be a completely accurate comparison.
___________________________________________ Here are my final numbers after blending the machining in the bowls: Valve Intake Lift, Edel, S090, My 090's .100, 65, 74, 90 .200, 130, 156, 157 .300, 192, 201, 202 .400, 235, 219, 220 .500, 258, 226, 236 .600, 260, 232, 241 AVG, 190, 185, 191 Valve Exhaust Lift, Edel, S090, My 090's .100, 52, 56, 53 .200, 96, 112, 110, .300, 127 , 141, 149 .400, 163, 145, 175 .500, 182 , 149, 192 .600, 190, 150, 192 AVG, 135, 126, 145 You might note the improvement after blending relative to my previous numbers. Also note that although my numbers are up, the exhaust valve quit improving after .500 lift - as did the stock port. I lost a little mid lift flow on the intake after blending but this could just as well be setup error as the difference is marginal. I did not really change much on the intake from the previous test other than clean up the bowls. The only difference from stock on my intakes are gasket matched ports, deburred runners, and cleaned up bowls. The slightly lower than stock exh flow at .100 and .200 is probably due to the larger throat, resulting in a minor loss of some low lift velocity, but it sure jumps up after that and did show considerable gains over the previous test after cleaning up the machining. Note that stock heads don't gain much after .400 lift (only 4cfm exh from .400 - .500). Mine jump 27cfm. I used a bell-mouthed inlet fairing made from a 1" thick polycarbonate plate on the intake port and various sizes of exhaust stub tubes (1.5", 1.75", 2") . None of these matched up exactly to the ports, though the intake was pretty close, so the numbers should only be used for comparison from one test to the next using the same setup, not actual flow when installed with a matched manifolds. The smaller exh stub tubes resulted in better numbers, for what that's worth. Edited by 74Bubblefender - Aug/29/2007 at 6:08am |
|
We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
|
nosigma
AMC Apprentice Joined: Dec/30/2007 Location: McLean Va Status: Offline Points: 200 |
Posted: Jan/07/2008 at 3:27pm |
I ported a set of 291 C heads for a fellow several years ago. Here is what they flowed. Std Atmosphere, corrected to 28"
Ex In
.1 57 90
.2 115 148
.3 147 200
.4 192 241
.5 206 273
.6 210 293
.7 211 300
.8 na 308
No exhaust stub, just a large clay fillet used on both the intake and exhaust.
Four valve shapes were tested and it made a differernce. I did a lot of port velocity mapping and wet flow testing as well. This compared quite well to a set of Mondello heads I was loaned as a "guide". The Mondello ports were about 30% epoxy. With that head as a guide I didnt hit water but I remember cutting into a bolt or a pushrod hole so I didnt away without a little epoxy.
John Edited by nosigma - Jan/07/2008 at 3:35pm |
|
GremlinXman
AMC Nut Joined: Jul/26/2007 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 227 |
Posted: Apr/16/2008 at 7:03am |
My HLR heads flow .306 @ .600 and .323@ .700 I forget what the exhaust flows but I know it is up there.
That is with 2.1 Manly super duty race valve and reworked combustion chambers. No epoxy and didn't brake thru the pushrod pinch.
Davis Edited by GremlinXman - Apr/16/2008 at 7:03am |
|
72 Gremlin X was 360 Auto ran 12.6 @ 107 now 406 CI Auto 11.035 @ 121
|
|
Perrybones
AMC Nut Joined: Oct/05/2008 Location: Freehold NJ Status: Offline Points: 274 |
Posted: Jan/01/2009 at 3:03pm |
excellent head data Steve. Hard work, well worth it .
Many posts worry too much about what intakes, cams, headers etc to use on their builds and neglect to know what heads they have and how their heads flow first!
Once you know your block its HEADS FIRST! Then match up the support equipment. Heads dictate HP potential.
I have printed out your data and added it to my binder.
Thanks
|
|
Perry 70 Javelin SST 390, 69 AMX 343, 73 AMX 360, 67 Rebel SST Conv and 92 Corvette Conv. (modern muscle to keep wife happy).
|
|
71amx
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jan/09/2009 Location: Kenosha, WI. Status: Offline Points: 92 |
Posted: Feb/10/2009 at 9:13pm |
Here are the numbers for our port job on the Indy Heads
28" with clay difuser 2.100 int valve 1.65 exh.
Lift Int Exh
.100 65.0 55.2
.200 139.3 112.7
.300 200.3 151.0
.400 249.6 186.0
.500 290.2 208.4
.600 312.8 225.0
.700 323.0 238.4
.800 326.0 250.0
Thanks,
Nick
|
|
Alfano Performance
4849-76 st Kenosha, WI. 53142 262-308-1302 71amx@sbcglobal.net |
|
dangerzone
AMC Apprentice Joined: Oct/24/2008 Status: Offline Points: 30 |
Posted: Feb/19/2009 at 7:59pm |
my indy srs flow
int ext
.100 92.87 58.23
.200 164.28 117.90
.300 224.96 172.24
.400 277.65 217.87
.500 315.77 240.87
.600 343.42 260.40
.700 360.37 273.11
.800 365.72 282.27
race heads
.100 79.98 54.33
.200 159.95 114.78
.300 227.97 169.56
.400 282.74 215.93
.500 322.40 238.65
.600 340.49 257.45
.700 346.31 270.38
.800 349.18 279.68
srs on my pump gas 427
John Garland Garland Performance
.200 159.95 11
|
|
kirkwood
Moderator Group Charter Member Joined: Jun/28/2007 Location: Fort Wayne, IN Status: Offline Points: 6567 |
Posted: Jul/08/2010 at 9:16am |
If you have flow numbers to share please PM them to a moderator to add to this thread.
|
|
AMO Newsletter Editor
|
|
kirkwood
Moderator Group Charter Member Joined: Jun/28/2007 Location: Fort Wayne, IN Status: Offline Points: 6567 |
Posted: Mar/24/2011 at 7:00am |
Courtesy pfordamx:
here are some flow numbers from my ported 291c's with 2.02 intakes and 1.65 exhaust bare in mind i did not port these. flowed at 28" h20 76 degrees f 29.55 barometer and 66% humidity intake radiused inlet guide plate .100 - 67.90 .200 - 134.64 .300 - 202.57 .400 - 233.91 .500 - 248.10 .600 - 258.40 .700 - 261.52 exhaust used 8" long 2" tube .100 - 62.70 .200 - 113.21 .300 - 160.59 numbers generated from JKM dual 600 flow bench .400 - 202.62 .500 - 230.08 .600 - 241.11 .700 - 248.00 |
|
AMO Newsletter Editor
|
|
Post Reply | |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |