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Distributor advance

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gnrand View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Distributor advance
    Posted: Jan/15/2020 at 8:53pm
The engine tag says to set the initial at TDC with the vacuum off. I assume they
using a ported vacuum port to advance the initial timing after TDC is set. 390 motor. I did a search and found posts that recommended the initial timing being set at 10-12 degrees advance at idle with and the vacuum port comes into play a WOT.
Jeff

Edited by gnrand - Jan/15/2020 at 8:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BassBoat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/15/2020 at 9:13pm
switching the source of vacuum from manifold to ported for vacuum advance was done for emissions.  I think you will get better performance with a manifold vacuum source.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/15/2020 at 10:45pm
The original set up from the factory was to use manifold vacuum. If they say "with the hoses disconnected" that is why, since ported won't do much at idle. They did that to give it extra timing at idle, for better smoothness and to be easier on the starter.

Your distributor is likely around 32 degrees of mechanical advance. Set at 0 or tdc, that will give a conservative advance at WOT. The vac advance will add around 12 degrees at both idle and at a steady cruise, giving a smoother idle and better mileage on the highway.

All of this only applies if you are still using the original camshaft and other major parts. If so, then the factory settings will work, though most people back in the day found that around 4-5 degrees advance (giving a total of around 36-37 mechanical advance at WOT) worked better. If you use the vacuum advance and the stock distributor settings, then I would not use ported vacuum because your idle timing will be too retarded for a good idle.

Chris

PS: If you are interested in re-curving the distributor, you may get better performance even with everything else stock.


Edited by ccowx - Jan/16/2020 at 12:30am
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gnrand View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/15/2020 at 11:09pm
Thank you. Good information
Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PHAT69AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2020 at 9:54pm
Not to dispute others posts.
Limit the Distributor to only 24 Degrees total potential Mechanical Advance at whatever rpm.
Distributor positioning, 'Initial Advance' of 12 degrees goes along with the 24 mech for 36 total.
Whatever and however the Vacuum Advance is and does is independent of, and goes on top of that.
imho you want to set your total Advance of 36 degrees at rpm with vac adv disconnected.
Then whatever it is at idle is whatever it is, it depends on the mech adv weights, springs, and amount.

Factory was Ported Vacuum to the Vacuum Advance, no Vacuum Advance at Idle.
No, Vacuum advance does or adds nothing at WOT, there is 0 manifold or ported vacuum at WOT.
Now there IS venturi vacuum at WOT, and that is what actuates Vacuum Secondary Carbs.
Ported Vacuum if working properly has 0 vacuum at idle and will add no vac advance at idle.
Although best practice is to disconnect and plug the carburetor side of the vacuum hose.
Initial Timing Advance Setting - this is less than what is best to go by, especially without knowing potential total Mechanical Advance.
Total combined Initial Mechanical Advance is what matters and what should be used to set the timing at rpm
using a Dial back Timing Light or Indexed Dampener, most likely 34 to  36 degrees.
What the advance is at idle speed is secondary, avoiding over advance at rpm with mech adv all-in is primary.
Vacuum advance has nothing to do with either one, is there for other reasons,
and only comes in or applies when there is vacuum, which foot off the gas or steady state cruise. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 69 ambassador 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2020 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

Not to dispute others posts.
Limit the Distributor to only 24 Degrees total potential Mechanical Advance at whatever rpm.
Distributor positioning, 'Initial Advance' of 12 degrees goes along with the 24 mech for 36 total.
Whatever and however the Vacuum Advance is and does is independent of, and goes on top of that.
imho you want to set your total Advance of 36 degrees at rpm with vac adv disconnected.
Then whatever it is at idle is whatever it is, it depends on the mech adv weights, springs, and amount.

Factory was Ported Vacuum to the Vacuum Advance, no Vacuum Advance at Idle.
No, Vacuum advance does or adds nothing at WOT, there is 0 manifold or ported vacuum at WOT.
Now there IS venturi vacuum at WOT, and that is what actuates Vacuum Secondary Carbs.
Ported Vacuum if working properly has 0 vacuum at idle and will add no vac advance at idle.
Although best practice is to disconnect and plug the carburetor side of the vacuum hose.
Initial Timing Advance Setting - this is less than what is best to go by, especially without knowing potential total Mechanical Advance.
Total combined Initial Mechanical Advance is what matters and what should be used to set the timing at rpm
using a Dial back Timing Light or Indexed Dampener, most likely 34 to  36 degrees.
What the advance is at idle speed is secondary, avoiding over advance at rpm with mech adv all-in is primary.
Vacuum advance has nothing to do with either one, is there for other reasons,
and only comes in or applies when there is vacuum, which foot off the gas or steady state cruise. 
 
 
Phat is 100% correct.  AMC did not use manifold vac to the distributor at idle EVER.  The later cars had a TCVS that connected the distributor to ported vac under normal conditions and would switch to manifold vac if coolant temps got above a set high limit.  This was done to reduce further heating by advancing the timing, thus raising the idle and also reducing EGTs to help cool the heads.  Running manifold vac under light load and lean cruise can actually raise NOX emissions by increasing combustion pressures and temps in the chamber.  In short, You would normally run ported, just like AMC did.
 
Steve Brown

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/17/2020 at 10:31am
The engine will idle and run much better with 5+ degrees of advance (no vacuum to distributor when you set initial timing). The TDC setting was for emissions. As said, limit the mechanical and vacuum advance as necessary to prevent pinging. if you run too much initial advance the engine may be slow cranking depending on how good your starter is; so that's another variable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/17/2020 at 10:46am
Fair enough, I got thrown off on the manifold vs vacuum! However, I do have to say that in fact it is not true that AMC never used manofold vacuum, they did on the dual advance distributors. It was used for the idle retard on some early 70 distributors and I believe others as well. Mine still has the hook up for it, though I am not using it at the moment. 

Chris 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnrand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/17/2020 at 11:30am
Thank you. I will play around with it to find the sweet spot.
Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavy 488 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/17/2020 at 11:47am
Vacuum advance connected to manifold is more of a bandaid to other issues.
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