Fr&#111;nt end similarities hornet/c&#111;ncorde/eagle?

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Topic: Front end similarities hornet/concorde/eagle?
Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 9:28am

billd wrote:

Is it a right fender? Still looking for NOS right fender.

It's a Driver's side!

billd

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Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 9:25am

Is it a right fender? Still looking for NOS right fender.

Anyway - here we go on the all the speculation and guess as to what they did and why or what they didn't do and why. this is why AMC people have arguments over what's right and proper, trouble judging at shows and other issues. AMC didn't use whatever was in a scrap heap to get by and it's counter-productive to keep guessing and speculating as to what dies and presses they had set up.
We are about facts - not guessing. so unless we can demonstrate what they did or didn't do - please, don't suggest "maybe they just put this on a die or press to......."

As far as Eagle - we can counter some of the BS speculation as to how they may or may not have simply added a part to a press or die by stating - factually - that with Eagle, it was the first time in company history that they could not keep up with orders for new cars. In fact, they kept things running pretty steady and were still months behind. This has been documented in books about Eagle (and other papers) so to simply toss something together for Eagle makes no sense - but then that's speculation about what they did or didn't do.
But there is proof in numbers and historical records and books - and personal experience - that AMC could not keep up with new car orders for EAGLE. I waited three months and then I suspect what the dealer did was take a car off their lot and add the options we wanted. They kept trying to talk us into other cars because they couldn't get our order through. We ordered in early December - didn't get a car until into February.

>> I just can not figure out why AMC would change the floor in just ONE model of the Eagle, AND manufacture a completely different seat base to accommodate that change!?!<<

I MAY be able to help with that - roof slope, head-room. The SX4, like the Spirit, has the same door skin as a sedan - but the window frame is installed differently. It's got a different "slant" to it. so there was higher clearance in the wagon and sedan. You can get by with bigger and different seats in the wagon and sedan. You have more height inside, floor to roof.
I have been told that you can't fit a Gremlin door to a SX4 or Spirit without changing the window setup.
It still wasn't big bucks for AMC because the lower seat frame is cheap and the mod was simple. The backs are identical Spirit to SX4 - just the base is different. And I know of wagon owners who have taken sets from other vehicles and mounted them with little trouble - they had the HEIGHT inside.
And as MacGyver found - the floor pan is made of several different parts over-lapped and spot welded together so it wasn't a huge big stamping to change - they changed only one area of the floor - the rear floor pan SECTIONS are likely the same. No big deal.

But let's stop making folks laugh at us by guessing and speculating as to what AMC did. It's just keeping alive all the BS out there about cheap AMC just tossing in whatever they had - which we know is BS. They were indeed a modern car company - everyone in the 80s faced CAFE, EPA and other regs. It almost killed Chrysler and GM made some pretty nasty stuff then, too. They just had the cash to survive their mistakes. Size matters.

Here's an example of a floor panel joint - the panel in the upper right is the front part of the floor pan where your feet would go. My "guess" is that this is the same between Spirit and SX4.
the other part - lower in the picture, is where the HUMP for the transmission and transfer case is.
Then there's another section behind that for where the rear seats are - again, I "bet" or "guess" this is the same Spirit to SX4
And there's ANOTHER joint in the hatch area. (I have a lot of pics of Eagle stuff)
What this means - only a small section of the floor was made specific to SX4 - the other sections could be the same.
There, no need for expensive retooling, no guessing "they just added this to the die". They simply had at least FOUR parts to the floor and only one of them needed to change.
</end-guessing>

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Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 7:33am

I just want to say that I fell victim to the fender differences myself too! Bought a bare NOS fender at the last Homecoming show and thought it would work on my Concord. Turned out to be an Eagle fender. So.. I have an NOS Eagle fender to trade for a bare/really nice Concord fender to anyone interested!

Sigh....

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Posted: Jun/20/2019 at 6:20am

They generally didn't change much, just what HAD to be changed to make a meaningful alteration. I wouldn't be surprised if the Eagle and Concord floors weren't the same die with an addition laid inside the Concord floor die to make the Eagle floor. Might be two different dies, but wouldn't be hard to make an insert for the additional hump in the Eagle and stamp a run of floors, then remove and stamp Concord floors. Makes me wonder if they did that or ponied up the dough for a second die!

The main issue with fenders is replacements. I suspect AMC stamped Concord fenders then had a second die that just altered the wheel opening and flared the fenders, but that's just a guess. It would be a lot of work to hand alter a fender now, but if you had a big press and die and a fresh off the press non-painted fender to work with...

Again, this alteration work for the Eagle is pure speculation on my part. They made enough Eagles over the eight year run that a couple Eagle specific dies for the floor panel with the hump and a whole fender die would have made sense. That's only two Eagle body specific dies, which is just a drop in the bucket for all the body dies needed. Of course there are a few other body stampings that are Eagle specific, but as noted by all most of the body stampings are shared with Concord.

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Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 8:23pm

Thanks for the kudos guys!! That really means a lot to me!!

I need to mention, Bill... In no way am I trying to discount or discredit your research, comparisons or measurements or any of that stuff!!

I know you spent a lot of time on that, and it's really good info for people looking into working on these cars!!

I sort of side stepped the SX/4 part of the equation, and used a wagon floor piece in my Spirit, so all bets are off after that, I guess!! LOL!

I never even removed any of the seats (Eagle or Spirit) from their sliders, so in all honesty, the pics you posted are WAY deeper into the seats than I ever got!!

But it's THIS:

tomj wrote:

they'll change the damndest-seeming things to avoid changing something that looks simple.

This is exactly why I think I came off so harshly in the beginning!!!

It confuses me!!

WHY?? I just can not figure out why AMC would change the floor in just ONE model of the Eagle, AND manufacture a completely different seat base to accommodate that change!?!

Why would they??? I like Tom's term of "cheapskate AMC"!!

It doesn't really make sense for a company that had been pinching pennys for years to do such a thing!!!

Would that not add to the cost of manufacture??

I guess we'll never know!!!

You Drive A What?!?

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Posted: Jun/19/2019 at 12:54am

NICELY DONE!!! lol yes, you have to Become One with the metal to puzzle out, bassackwards, how cheapskate AMC saw things. they'll change the damndest-seeming things to avoid changing something that looks simple. you KNOW there must be a reason but the data's not in the metal or the TSM. it might have been in the rail container full of them still in stock, or something.

everything interchanges! except when it doesn't -- PACER. MATADOR. oopsie.

the 70s and 80s got very baroque to me, i know nothing of them. that you did this in that era is fairly amazing.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:32pm

PS - this needs to be said directly - MacGyver did a bang-up job on that floor and the car looks really nice from here. Pretty cool. It's a car on my bucket list to see in person, honestly. To transplant a floor piece like that is no small feat and it looks sharp.
Much better than those who take a decent Eagle and hack it to bits to make a Spirit out of it - ugh, what a waste. If ya want a Spirit, BUY a bloody Spirit but don't hack up a rare car to make one. On the other hand - salvaging Eagle parts like this - gotta say, pretty cool and a ton of work to be sure.
So regardless of the technical back and forth - kudos. Nicely done - and thanks for the pic of the floor - that speaks nicely.

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Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:23pm

Fenders - I laid one over the other, took many measurements as I was trying to determine the differences to see if a NOS Concord/Spirit fender I had could be easily fit to a NON-1980 Eagle.
Nope. Too much difference. I had both side-by-side, on top of each other. That's how I came up with the differences. I even wondered about some creative cutting, etc.

No one is saying your car/project didn't turn out fine - or even better than fine. Just that in the interest of facts, parts comparisons and so on people come here to do research, find out what interchanges, what doesn't, what differences are - so the fender thing is a HUGE discussion now and then in the Eagle forums and FB pages. It keeps coming up so I decided to settle it - here are the fender facts, the how and why, what years work, don't work and why.

I guess you have the only 1980 Eagle SX4 in existence - you could fool a lot of folks because it has the 1980 only bumper and bumper trim style on an SX4 type car.

Here is a small stack of fenders I was comparing - Concord and Eagle. I had several of each in my garage and took them into my shop for detailed measurements....... I put them up on stands and saw horses and spent a ton of time measuring.
I still have a number of used and NOS body parts hanging on walls - quarter panels, fenders and so on...

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Posted: Jun/18/2019 at 11:09pm

It should - because as I pointed out - the seats have the same mounting points save for the front center on each seat. To do that the floor pans would have to be at least very similar if not the same in the other three mounting points for each seat, same relative horizontal plane as well as vertical plane otherwise the other three mounting points would have to be different. Since the only difference is the height of the brackets (slight difference in height only) and the front tunnel mount, that tells us the floors of the Spirit and Eagle are pretty similar - the same in most spots.
But again, we're talking Spirit and Eagle........
Dash is the same - showing the firewalls at or near the top are the same (minor differences for clutch cylinder mounting point), sill plates interchange across two door models, hoods, hatch, side glass..... same.
the two door sedan seems to be different from the hatchback models - carpet for a sedan doesn't fit a hatchback for !##!. Not even close behind the middle of the front seats. (carpet fitting in an Eagle is a pain to begin with but add to that the limited options and it's no fun at all)

I've pointed out the seat frame - mounting rails differences, they are different as can be seen in the photos. Spirit vs. Eagle - lower frame is quite different in shape, etc..

Look at the photos again and tell me the Eagle seat outer mounting provision isn't taller - and the frame height different, the shape of the frame different. Yeah, they DID make different seats. Can you make them work - yeah. But they aren't the same. The outer mount of the Eagle had to change to raise the seat up enough to clear the tunnel! If you put that Eagle seat in a Spirit it would sit a bit higher.
They had to change the seat frame and make the outboard mount taller or the seat couldn't have cleared the tunnel. The seat BACKS are identical - one will transfer directly to the other (assuming same seat type) but I found the seat bottom upholstery is a bit different for Eagle, the lower edge and trim a bit different due to the height in the car. I have NOS Eagle upholstery and I have Spirit seat parts - and they don't interchange well.

But again - this was never about Spirit or the later AMCs, it was about the earlier cars - a different car - the Gremlin.
We were never asked about Spirit...........

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