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dakota089 
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Joined: Nov/02/2014 Location: Fredonia NY Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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 Topic: FI TechPosted: Jul/09/2017 at 9:48pm |
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Has anyone tried the FI Tech 400 HP fuel injection on a 258 or a 4.0 yet ? They claim it will work on 150 hp up to 400 hp
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69 Javelin, 75 Hornet
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7539 |
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Posted: Jul/11/2017 at 1:08am |
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funny you mention that, i just looked at it, and thought the same thing. it's too much money for me.
i installed a Howell TBI kit on the 232 in my old '63 Classic wagon. in hindsight i could have done it without that kit, though no regret. it was some GM TBI on an adapter, plus a GM computer (and fuel pump relay and minor stuff), and Moate's AUTOPROM to burn "eprom"s. i'm seriously considering doing all that again on my 195.6 OHV, even though it's all 30+ year old junk. it's very well known and stable tech. it worked GREAT. somewhat annoying and involved to set up, but looking back, not that bad. the last option, which i hesitate over, is to write my own fuel injection software. it's a skill set i already have, not a common one i think, but i know it woudl be a PITA so i hesitate. other than using more modern electronics than the GM jobs (you want the "7747" GM computer, to be brief). the GM 7747, plus AutoPROM setup, is a straightforward PITA that's been done by 1000's of people, so there's that. that's likely what i'd do. if there was another person who had the skill to code real time code and electronics id maybe go that route. oh, i just assumed TBI, sorry. it would depend on your goals. i want closed-loop, altitude independence, and TBI gains me 95% of what full port injection would at a fraction of the complexity. if you are willing to go the port injection route, and can drop a grand more or less at once, then a Megasquirt setup would be the way to go. it is better than throttle body. but here's the thing: the OEMs have different goals than us. me, if i wrote TBI code, would use a wide-band oxygen sensor/AFR setup. the sensor is $100. since it gives a proportional lean/rich response it vastly simplifies the software. a lambda type sensor costs $25 (retail). for the OEMs, having their programmer-army work a couple more months to use a lambda sensor -- like the GM box does -- saves them millions. the lambda sensor says, only "lean". so the code is complex and somewhat inaccurate, but conservative and reliable, as they had to make MILLIONS of the damned things and avoid warranty repairs! a stupid old carburetor does a half-fast job for what, $400 new. but i live at sea level, and most of my long road trips are over 2500, so i have to bring the jet kit and change jets on the road. it's stupid. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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1982AMCConcord
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Joined: Jul/13/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 1287 |
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Posted: Jul/11/2017 at 10:26am |
If you get this... you won't have to burn EPROM's anymore.... you can tune it with a laptop... http://www.dynamicefi.com/ |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7539 |
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Posted: Jul/12/2017 at 1:26am |
wow, yes! i never saw this site before. today i read all my notes and the docs from the GM ECM in the classic. dynamicEFI's stuff is a kind of sweet spot, it's still that old ECM but most or all of the kludgey bits gone. that's a pretty thorough hack they've done. nice stuff. price is pretty good too. 1982AMCConcord, have you used this setup? i will write them, i have one question: why the P4 flash version says it supports only "one TBI, 4-cyl". i dont get why the limitation. TBI is fine for my application, and the 195.6 has uneven intake symmetry, it's (1) (2-3) (4-5) (6) i could arrange asymetrical spacing for injectors, but port injection doesnt offer enough advantage for this application to compensate for the added complexity i dont think. thanks so much for that. i'll go look for peoples installs of it. if you've used it i'd love to hear about it. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum 
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19675 |
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Posted: Jul/12/2017 at 7:12am |
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If you look at the P$ page and not just the "what to use" chart, it says:
2) Cylinder select is via a jumper on the EBL P4 board. It is capable of running the following set ups: Single TBI unit on a 4-cylinder engine, or dual TBI on 4-cylinder using the '7749 ECM MPFI on a 4-cylinder engine MPFI on a 6-cylinder engine MPFI on an 8-cylinder engine So it apparently depends on what ECM you have. The old 2.5L four used a single BIG TBI though, and would be plenty flow for a 196. I seem to recall the butterfly being in the 2.25-2.50" range when I was looking into using one on a 196. The WCD 2V has little 1-1/4" or so butterflys... the single large one should flow more. The 1-1/4" butterflies are only 1.23 square inches (2.46 combined), a 2.25" butterfly would be almost 4 square inches (3.98). Even if the WCD butterflies are 1-1/2" they are still just close to total capacity of the 2.25" (1.77 each, 3.54 total). I know butterfly size isn't the only indicator of flow, but it's close enough. |
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Frank Swygert
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1982AMCConcord
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Joined: Jul/13/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 1287 |
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Posted: Jul/12/2017 at 7:34am |
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Sorry.. I just seen this... yup... 4, 6 or 8. Can be used to control electric fan and trans... also run 3 bar sensor for boosted applications. Basically... its a tricked out version of the classic GM EPROM based ECM.
Nope... I have never used it but I followed the Third Gen F Body TBI pages for many years because I own a Caprice with a TBI 350 and wanted to convert my computer to this at one time. Consider this... when you look at all these 2barrel TBI systems for AMC.. Howell.... Affordable... etc... just buy it without their computer and use this Flash based version instead. It's totally tune-able.... and you can add other stuff too. I always thought it was a genius thing that is often overlooked because the guy selling it doesn't have the marketing dollars to advertise it more. Word of mouth has does him justice though. He has a lot of dedicated followers that will swear by it. This guy had this hack done 20 years ago... and he's been breathing fire into the old 2 barrel TBI for a long long time. When I see guys putting a TBI on a AMC engine and they are using a stock chip... yeah it runs but they have no idea of the potential of what they have under that TBI. At one time... I had seen dyno video of a stock 2 bolt main bottom end cast piston 350 with garage ported heads make 325hp to the rear wheels running one of these computers. There's absolutely no reason at all the 360 couldn't make some serious power with a computer like this and a cheap TBI system. The key thing with the 2 barrel TBI is fuel efficiency. Turn the pressure up a bit on the injectors and that helps with fuel atomization. So for a casual driver... TBI really is a cost effective EFI solution... but this computer's tune-ablilty still lends itself well to the FI enthusiast though. So... this was all great 20 years ago... but today... the FiTech and the Holley are the future though. They are... an inexpensive programmable 4 barrel is what the market has needed for the last 10 years. Edited by 1982AMCConcord - Jul/12/2017 at 7:40am |
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amcfool1
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Joined: Jun/18/2011 Location: roanoke va Status: Offline Points: 1075 |
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Posted: Jul/12/2017 at 9:20am |
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hi, I haven't done this, but there is a gentleman on the "Eaglesden" site, that just installed a "FAST" kit, on a 258 Eagle. apparently they make a "Jeep"kit, for the 258, that only uses 2 injectors from a 4 bbl TBI.
Mr. tomj, I though you really liked your new Weber 38, is it not performing well any longer? I'm seriously thinking of getting one for my 77 258. thanks, gz
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george z
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1982AMCConcord
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Joined: Jul/13/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 1287 |
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Posted: Sep/08/2017 at 6:54am |
Sorry I didn't see this sooner... do you have a link to that page or a video of the car running? I'd like to see it... |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7539 |
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Posted: Sep/09/2017 at 8:50pm |
sorry i didn't see your post sooner! oh the weber 38/38 is running great. but its a carb, and like all carbs, sucks at varying altitude. i live in los angeles (300 ft) but very often drive for long stretches well above 2500 ft. a week in new mexico is a week above 5000! what's 14:1 at home moves to 11:1 or worse up high. plugs get black fluffy, then burns back to white on the way home. i'm in no hurry to convert to TBI. i was doing 'due diligence' research and sometimes, a solution pops up that can't be ignored. hasn't happened yet for TBI EFI, because it's shrinking, not growing, list of applications. my winter project is likely to be replacing the (61 american) front suspension as dubious old replacement parts alone are about the cost of all new circle-track parts and chevy spindles.
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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Nodak68
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Joined: May/08/2016 Location: Boston, MA Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Oct/13/2017 at 8:03am |
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I haven't run it yet, but am currently building a 4.6 stroker for my 68 Rogue that will have the FiTech 400 hp TBI. I plan to run the stock 4.0 intake from my '94 4.0 donor engine with a custom adapter plate that allows me to bolt up the FiTech throttle body (square bore 4bbl flange) to the 4.0 manifold. I drew up the adapter in 3D in AutoCad and had it 3D printed in Duraform HST, which is high temp and chemical resistant, should work OK and was $150. Could get one CNC machine from aluminum but will cost $400. I was able to put a really nice smooth transition from the 4bbl throttle body shape to the circular stock throttle body opening, so hopefully it will flow well. My calcs say it should flow about 600-700 cfm, which is more than enough for my 4.6. If you're less worried about how pretty it is you can probably fab up a plate from aluminum and grind down the square to circular transition by hand for less $. Only other mod was to plug the injector ports. I Drilled them with a 37/64 drill and tapped for 3/8" NPT plugs.
Main reason I did it this way vs just going with an Offy or Clifford 4bbl intake was so I could just bolt up my stock 4.0 accessory brackets. Adapter fab, hardware, and some nifty red anodized aluminum plugs for the injector ports ran about $200 total. Beats $300-400 for 4bbl intake and made rest of my install much easier. May be spring before I have it running, but will be posting when I do. |
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tomj