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driveshaft issues, Mustang rear

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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 5:39am
Being able to square the rear axle with something better than slotted holes (bolts CAN slip/work loose!) is a definite plus, and the strut length helps also. Sounds like struts extending near the front would be best for a universal type, and should be good for any engine up to a mild 360 at least. Build like long ladder bars. Most of those are only 32" and made of 1" x 0.156" tubing. 1/2" heim rod ends aren't that expensive either ($15 each at Jegs). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 2:20pm
i couldn't find an easy way to determine the strength and deflection of a tube/rod that is clamped at one end (front) and force applied to the other ("axle wrap"), so i just did some seat of the pants first principles math (engine torque * first gear * axle) to guesstimate worst cases, and extrapolated from there. 200 ft/lbs of engine torque times 3.whatever first is * 2.73 is over 1600 ft/lbs of axle-wrapping torque (assuming the tires bite, etc). and i know that i never bent in the slightest the first one, which was two lengths of 1.25" DOM, .120" wall, with the simplest mount possible, eg. the boxed end clamped with U-bolts. i think it did deflect (elastic) it a bit, right at that end. it's simple math (that at some point is too simple, but gets close enough): 1600 lbs at a foot is 3200 at half a foot, etc, and the axle tube is 0.2 foot diameter approx. so it's a lot of torque at the very back tip of the wishbone. though there's two of them. and hence the strut out 24", that limits the max. torque applied by the axle wrap to the wishbone to a totally manageable, knowable, 400 lbs/leg (1600 ft/lbs at 2 feet is 800, two legs, 400 each). THAT is well within whatever the limit is! 

and so no matter how well my tires hook up, etc, i am unlikely to do wheelstands in this car with this suspension.

hmm ok from that we could calc backwards -- a wheel-standing car has got to lift what, 2/3rds (.67) the weight of the car? assuming 2000 lbs that's 1340 lbs of weight. what's the lever length? seat of the pants, "most" of the wheelbase, longitudinal CofG. say half way, 50 inches, call it 48 in/4 ft... 

... so to wheel-stand my Rambler (lol) (erm,or a car with an actual engine) requires 1340 lbs of up-lift at 4 feet. that's 4 * 1340 ft/lbs torque at the axle, or 5360 ft/lbs at the tire. hmm, that sounds high.

but the point of this foolishness was to get close to see how strong a wishbone (or truck arm, or whatever) would have to be for that level of extreme foolishness.

the point is, it's probably within a factor of 2, or 4, or 0.5, or something, of a wishbone being stiff enough to not deflect "much" 48" from the axle with 1340 lbs of upforce at the end. we know that would be easy to construct with two tubes with a couple of triangulations.



1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2016 at 4:36pm
My comment was just that the diameter of the tubing seems a bit small relative to the length, so even with the struts it may be a bit "springy" and not give quite the desired control. It may be fine ... not sure what length, diameter and wall thickness tubing you've used, so the photo on pg.1 may be misleading?

But basically, for a beam in bending, the longer it is the more section needed to maintain desired stiffness ... like the HD torque arms that use a fabricated truss design with a relatively wide span top-to-bottom at the axle, tapering to less section near the front pivot. Good stiffness to resist bending, with minimal weight ... but easier to package if you can fit it beside the driveshaft in the tunnel.

A web search for "cantilevered beam deflection" may help for rough calculations.

If you know the stock torque tube diameter, wall thickness and length, you can calculate roughly how the stiffness of the stock design compares to your wishbone.

Hope this helps,RD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/01/2016 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:

 ... like the HD torque arms that use a fabricated truss design with a relatively wide span top-to-bottom at the axle, tapering to less section near the front pivot. Good stiffness to resist bending, with minimal weight ... but easier to package if you can fit it beside the driveshaft in the tunnel.

hey thanks Red Devil. i'll look up that search term! and you're right, the stiffness of the Rambler T.T. is  good place to start. [edit: OK will start with Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_(engineering) i might end up trying to test it's deflection under a small load so i can work out elasticity. or maybe i can calculate it from tubing tables and get "close enough". thanks again.]

i agree with you; that indeed is the question. my simple wishbone with single strut is of course a single triangle truss, tapering to a single tube etc. i'm confident it's stiff enough, but hey, i've been wrong before (and wrong often).

btw, there's enough room to build a triangulated truss. the tubular system Rambler used is certainly more than stiff enough, but not practical to fab up at home. 

the previous system was at least, adequate, but possibly suffered from windup spring (even with the 195.6 OHV); hard to tell. this one is certainly vastly stiffer, the struts put torque 1/3rd the length.

if it ends up springy i'll let you know. the good news is, it's now modular, so it would be a weekend job to replace the wishbone and with the axle in the car. if it became necessary, i think that raising the front-most strut pivot up 2", 3" above the main tube (it's about 1" now), triangulate it rigidly forward with another tube. maybe shorten the adjusting strut. i think that would allow stiffness up to "popular" engine power levels :-)



Edited by tomj - Jun/02/2016 at 12:11am
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/02/2016 at 5:08pm
In your blog it says nearly 70" from centre of axle to front pivot, main tubes are 1.25" OD x 0.120" wall and 24" for strut length. Just for interest, did a quick mock-up analysis with 1000 lbf.ft torque applied to the axle tube, axle restrained from moving up or down, can only rotate with the torque and the front pivot can rotate freely. Get around 3/4" max deflection ... but maybe you won't have traction to transfer that much torque as not sure what anti-squat % you get with the wishbone? Might be a bit "springy" ...



With 1.5" tubes drops to just under 1/2"



With 2.0" tubes it drops to under 1/4"



Just a quick analysis, so not sure how accurate ... but hopefully gives an idea on deflection vs. tube section.   May be fine as is ... but a truss design for the main tubes would certainly add some stiffness.

Hope this helps,RD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/03/2016 at 12:14am
wow thanks!!! that's hugely enlightening. i really appreciate the effort. whatever the simulation's limitations i'm sure it's closer than my guesswork. as a highly scientifical rigorousish test, i stood on the wishbone, right in front of the strut -- and it did deflect, probably 1/4". the previous one didn't deform, this one won't either, and it'll deflect less, given the strut, etc. 

it is very heartening to see that the highest bending/stress is right where i expected it to be -- right in front of the front strut mount.

here's one of the things that convinced me that i was on the right path, revisiting the torque tube solution: http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/torque-arm.html

is that an online calculator? or software you have?

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/03/2016 at 12:28am
Red Devil: anti-squat....

i haven't done a lot of analysis because there's not much i can do about it! the geometry is pretty much as that torque arm page shows, just below the U-joint.

oh BTW, the wishbone length is 67.5" from axle centerline to heim pivot. 

the "instant" center (there's only one instance, it doesn't move like a 4-bar) is below the U-joint. it can't be all that far from the anti-squat line. i'll have to figure that out later. it can't be worse than the leaf setup! 



1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/03/2016 at 11:45am
Those are deformation plots. Just did a quick model and FEA on my lunch break to satisfy my own curiosity ... so not something that can be used to verify if the design is ok or not.

Here's a stress plot, with revised length of 67.5" from centre of axle to front pivot, same torque and same 1.25" tubes. A bit higher stress than I would be comfortable, but again, just a quick model so not an accurate analysis of your design.



Obviously, more gear and a more powerful engine matched with better traction will generate more torque at the axle, so may need some attention to the design.

I don't have a good feel for the loading, so hopefully you're confident that what you have developed is at least as strong as stock and you'll test in a safe location and check closely to ensure no issues.

Hope this helps, RD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/04/2016 at 8:49am
Those quick calcs do a lot to justify the design though. 2" tubing with both bars reaching almost to the pivot point and braced between (like a truss) would hols a LOT of torque. That would also greatly reduce that red stress point just in front of where the upper bars meet the lower. Well, the stress point would actually move further toward the pivot/intersect point, but should be greatly reduced due to length of upper arm. I'm assuming the stress just in front of where the upper arm meets the lower is what you don't feel good about...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/04/2016 at 10:46am
My main concern is fatigue life and chance for a crack where the lugs for the strut are welded to the main tube.   If it was a higher power car with more gear and headed to the drag strip, I wouldn't run it without making something more substantial. The quick analysis was just torque on the axle, so combined loading would increase the stress. 

For this application, don't have a good feel for the loading so it may be fine as is ... just recommend to test in a safe area and monitor it closely and fix if any signs of issues.  

When I was looking at a torque arm design a few years ago. it wanted a fair bit more section ... but that was to handle a built 401 with a 2.66 1st and 4.10 rear, so substantially more torque.
  

Hope this helps,RD. 
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