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Cutting coils lowering ride height

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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/04/2012 at 6:53pm
Bagging can be done on the cheap. Just run an air hose out to the bumper or under the fender with a valve on it. Air up to what you want and let it go. Air spring kits are $60-80 each, the parts to make the mounts about $40 each ($100-$120 per wheel). Tubing and a valve would be maybe $25 total for both, so you're looking at $225-$250 for each axle. Just do one axle at a time. Remember -- this is with no compressor or controls. Just air up to where you want it and go. If you let air out you have to have an air source to get it back up. The thing is this is a good way to start. Get a storage tank next. Just air it up at the shop and have a hose that will reach all four corners. I know, inconvenient, but it will do until you can afford controls next. Then you can up the tank and control ride height for a bit. Finally get an on-board compressor. It will take a while, but I think this is a good stepped approach. You can do a bit at a time as you have the funds, or wait until you do have all the funds at once. I don't know about you, but every time I try the later something comes up that I give a higher priority (or the wife does!) and it takes even longer to save the funds... 
Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xedge4lifex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/05/2012 at 3:06am
bah im sorry guys 
 68 ambassador 
does anyone know if they are tangential or square coils?
ive revamped my procedure, you would thing working at a heat treatment plant i wouldnt even think to hit spring steel with a torch Wacko

im going to do all 4 sides at once, take off about an inch and a half of coil, and see if i get the results i want. im doing it with a hacksaw and cutting oil. the less heat i generate the better off it will be.

ideally bags are the ultimate solution, buckets of ducats and time are not on my side currently. ill try to remember to throw some before and after pics up this weekend.

thanks 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/05/2012 at 6:04am
They appear to be tangential in the rear, with the last coil slightly flattened. For the rear you'll have to cut the springs on top, as they get smaller in diameter at the axle end to fit the seat on the axle. The front springs are going to be difficult to cut.

They are squared on both ends to fit precisely in the seats that come out with the springs. You need a special tool (buy or make one, or you might be able to borrow one -- the "garryjav" tool that's mentioned on here a lot -- that's the member who makes them).  to remove and install those springs, a normal spring compressor won't work. I've seen guys use a scissor type strut spring compressor successfully, but the fender has to be off to get it in there.

I don't think you can just cut the coils on the front springs. If you do the cut end won't sit squarely in the spring seat, and installing them would be particularly dangerous, and taking them back out. You might want to investigate the clamps I mentioned for the fronts. 
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 69 ambassador 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/05/2012 at 7:26am
You cannot cut ther front springs.  They will sit cockeyed and bow out.  The springs were treated after forming so you cannot re-form the ends.  I also want to know where you get your hacksaw blades.  You can just get some correct springs made.  That should cost about $150.00 per set.  Or you could go the way I did and go coil over suspencion.  I can put it in the weeds now if I like and none of that annoying seasick grampa car float that airbags give a car.  Also, if you go air bags on the cheap as suggested, don't connect the two hoses for a pair together at one valve.  On corners the air will transfer from the outside to the inside and greatly increas body roll and handeling problems.  Always seperate the four corners.  Thats why the factory did it on bag equiped cars.  The trunnion style suspension is very easy to bag because of the mounting style.  You should be able to find usable bags at the local truck stop.  Just drill the appropriate holes in the spring tower and you don't even need hoses.  Just put the valve right at the bag.  You'll have to open the hood for filling.  Also, no air tank needed.  Just get a nice air pump from the bike shop.  The kind that you put your feet on and lift and push the handle.  If you are going to run the car in the weeds, don't forget to reinforce the lower control arms and suspension stop areas by boxing the ends all the way around or you'll pop out the lower bushing from the stress.  It's just sheet metal at the arm ends.  Hope this helps.  By the way, there's a guy in Australia that did this exact same thing.  That post os a couple of years old and I beleive it was a Rebel.  You would have to search the Australia section for the pics.
Steve Brown

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/05/2012 at 8:49am
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

I can put it in the weeds now if I like and none of that annoying seasick grampa car float that airbags give a car.  Also, if you go air bags on the cheap as suggested, don't connect the two hoses for a pair together at one valve.  On corners the air will transfer from the outside to the inside and greatly increas body roll and handeling problems.  Always seperate the four corners.  Thats why the factory did it on bag equiped cars.  The trunnion style suspension is very easy to bag because of the mounting style.  You should be able to find usable bags at the local truck stop.  Just drill the appropriate holes in the spring tower and you don't even need hoses.  Just put the valve right at the bag.  You'll have to open the hood for filling.  Also, no air tank needed.  Just get a nice air pump from the bike shop.  The kind that you put your feet on and lift and push the handle.  If you are going to run the car in the weeds, don't forget to reinforce the lower control arms and suspension stop areas by boxing the ends all the way around or you'll pop out the lower bushing from the stress.  It's just sheet metal at the arm ends.  Hope this helps.



Have you ever driven a properly setup air ride car?  I'm guessing that you haven't based upon your inaccurate assessment of the handling characteristics of an air spring.  A properly set up air ride system has only one disadvantage over a coil-over type setup, and that is the associated weight of the tank, fittings, and controls.  Other than that there is no more float or roll than a coil-over setup.  In fact there are many advantages to running air springs over coils on a less than racecar. 

For the record I have both setups and I have driven many different cars with both setups. I currently have Air on my Rambler and Coils on my MR2.  The main advantage to air is the ease of ride height changes, With the push of a button I can go from driving 'in the weeds' to pulling in the driveway or up onto a car trailer with ease.  This is a PITA with the coils on my MR2 and honestly I never really change my height settings due to the fact that once it's dialed in it's not the easiest thing to change and get back to where it belongs perfectly.  This is unlike air because with any decent air management system the height should be able to be set within +- 1/16" every time you return to a preset height.

On the idea of doing air on the cheap,  In theory it will work to run without a tank but as stated above do not run with any of the air springs plumbed together.  This will create the dangerous handling characteristics stated above.  I would at the very least run a small air tank and some manual valves, in case your air system isn't 100% air tight and the car leaks down a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/06/2012 at 9:18pm
what everyone else says -- plus changing ride height via spring cut or replacement, more than a small amount, affects bump steer, alignment, shock travel (they'll bottom sooner, breaking things) and all sorts of stuff. Bad idea.

Get or make lowering plates is a better idea. Safer, more reliable, straightforward.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xedge4lifex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 3:34am
Originally posted by 69 ambassador 390 69 ambassador 390 wrote:

You cannot cut ther front springs.  They will sit cockeyed and bow out.  The springs were treated after forming so you cannot re-form the ends.  I also want to know where you get your hacksaw blades.  You can just get some correct springs made.  That should cost about $150.00 per set.  Or you could go the way I did and go coil over suspencion.  I can put it in the weeds now if I like and none of that annoying seasick grampa car float that airbags give a car.  Also, if you go air bags on the cheap as suggested, don't connect the two hoses for a pair together at one valve.  On corners the air will transfer from the outside to the inside and greatly increas body roll and handeling problems.  Always seperate the four corners.  Thats why the factory did it on bag equiped cars.  The trunnion style suspension is very easy to bag because of the mounting style.  You should be able to find usable bags at the local truck stop.  Just drill the appropriate holes in the spring tower and you don't even need hoses.  Just put the valve right at the bag.  You'll have to open the hood for filling.  Also, no air tank needed.  Just get a nice air pump from the bike shop.  The kind that you put your feet on and lift and push the handle.  If you are going to run the car in the weeds, don't forget to reinforce the lower control arms and suspension stop areas by boxing the ends all the way around or you'll pop out the lower bushing from the stress.  It's just sheet metal at the arm ends.  Hope this helps.  By the way, there's a guy in Australia that did this exact same thing.  That post os a couple of years old and I beleive it was a Rebel.  You would have to search the Australia section for the pics.



what kind of coil overs are we talking here? adjustable? i dont want to go from my decent caddy ride, to some bumpy crud. and cutting the springs is kinda out of the question due to the way the springs sit in the seats. i need to get new tie rods, and bushings. ill probably end up refinishing each arm as i do it. the springs are getting heat treated. ive been looking around for spring clamps, but ill probably make something seeing as how i need 4.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/classic-tech/46430d1213502316-1967-mustang-coil-spring-replacement-internal_compressor.jpg

this also looks nifty, any idea if it would work on th 68 ambassador?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1akqSJE0ss
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 9:45am
NEGATIVE on the spring compressor. Look under a front fender. See those "ear" looking things with holes on opposite sides of the spring? There is a matching set just above the lower set. The tool we're talking about hooks in those holes and holds the spring compressed. Once hooked you just take the tire off, disconnect the shock, and push the lower arm down as far as it will go. Then the spring simply lifts out. Be careful with it! There's no way to get an internal compressor in the spring. I should add that the engine and trans must be in the car for the hooks to work. The factory hooks required the spring to be compressed a lot more -- you jacked the opposite rear corner up to transfer weight to the side you wanted to remove. I discussed this with Garry when he designed his tool, and he made it so that you don't usually have to do that. Might have to reach up and pull down on the fender a bit, but that's all. The downside is the shock has to be disconnected, but that's not much of an inconvenience when the more you compress the spring the more dangerous it is to handle.

If you send the coils out to a shop that can cut and heat treat the springs properly you should be fine. Just make sure it's a coil spring specialty shop, not just someone who's "done it all the time" or whatever. Heat treating spring steel is a bit of a science, though once the technique is practiced and you have the right equipment and chemicals it's not extremely difficult. It's like anything else, if you know how and have the stuff to work with, it gets easy... eventually.

There are coil-over kits that replace the spring entirely with a nice expensive coil over shock, but only for 1970+. Here's one: http://www.wscmotorsports.com/catalog/amc/amc_per1.htm.
It wouldn't be difficult to make a bracket that simply sits in the existing upper spring seat (drill and bolt thought top of spring tower) and sits on the existing upper trunnion spring seat (or make a new bracket -- the seat is threaded and screws on the trunnion on the big cars).  That might be something you'd want to do, wouldn't be hard to find a coil over shock the right length. They are on the high side though, $250 or so each with springs, plus the cost of making the brackets. On the bright side, once you make the brackets they will work for any 63-69 big car, and with a different lower bracket and probably different length shock, even the 64-69 American/Javelin/AMX. Don't know if there's much market for it, but I'm sure you could sell a few.

The only other alternative is a Control Freaks front suspension setup, which eliminates the trunnions. It's a complete crossmember with all new suspension and rack and pinion steering for the small cars and most big cars now (call if you have something other than the advertised 67-69 Rebel, they have them for a couple others now, 67-up anyway). It's accordingly a bit on the expensive side at around $3700 though. http://www.freakride.com/2011_amc_suspension.pdf
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 69 ambassador 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2012 at 10:50am
They have them for 1969 Ambassador at least.  And YES they are different then the other big cars.  But Airbags would be very easy.
Steve Brown

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69 Cougar XR7

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeatherEye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/19/2012 at 4:13pm
I installed some spring clamps on the right front spring on my 63 Classic and the front did not drop at all. I clamped the two middle coils, then tried the two bottom coils and I compressed them right together, nothing. Any ideas why there was no drop ?
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