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Comp Roller Lifters Problem

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forest View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote forest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2010 at 12:04am
Crower is sent me out the first set of new lifters for a test fit in a block here....  will keep you posted when they arrive...
setting guys out by car lengths....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/22/2010 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by 73hornut 73hornut wrote:

By now, you could have bushed the lifters.

Yea, I've been keeping out of this because I thought bushed lifters were evil or something. I have an .801" lift cam with these lifters & bushed lifter bores that everybody hates and have no problems. 
My opinion is once you start running roller cams, it's truly a race engine. 
Anybody that truly builds race engines knows that there are numerous components that do not fit as advertised and there are many complexities to race only parts that are above and beyond "drop in or bolt on"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 12:41am
 
 Jeff, you need to bush you're block, the op doesen't. Now he may do it, but it's not needed in his case. He will be bleeding a miniscule amount for a miniscule period on one lifter at a time, just like I did for the last year. My oil pressure was over 25# minimum at idle and over 55# above 3000 rpm. With you're cam you would be experiencing a gap approaching 1/8" high all the way across and have other lifters coming into play at varing ammounts simultaneously. I doubt a lifter can be developed to work with a cam like yours that doesen't require bushings?
 
 SKeown
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 1:09am
The bushings are flush with the lifter bores. I don't know the base circle size as it's 75 miles away but it is a 55mm cam. 
But the point is not "I don't have this problem" it's "race engines require more work"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 1:27am
 
 Race engines do require more work, that's a known fact. They don't call for unnecessary work though. Hell, I've known of people drilling small holes in a front galley plug to provide a supply of oil to the distributor drive gears. That is a constant bleed off that exceeds what he would be experiencing with his situation. I've heard of no ill effects from that. 
 
 The bottom line is I've run a strip/street car with the exact situation he's confronted with and it presented no problem for me. If our measurements are accurate, he will be exposing slightly less than me too.
 
 SKeown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 11:42am
You would be amazed at the amount of "re-engineering" or "unnecessary" work I see at the machine shop. It's from relatively simple "bolt ons" like intake manifolds to bolts to everything in between. I've had to straighten new cams numerous times and have even had to complete the machining of cams that somehow made it out of QC. Yea, you could scream and yell and get it replaced (and wait 6+ weeks or so and it still may have issues) or fix it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 12:13pm
 
 You're telling me, I have a billet roller cam right now that came from Lunati that's 5.5* long on duration and .011 short on lift. Naturally that's something that must go back.
 
 SKeown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73XBGT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/23/2010 at 11:33pm
I appreciate everyone's help here.  Like I said in a post a while back, I'd be lost without this forum (or at least way behind the learning curve).  I'm 45 years old and this is my first car engine build.  I picked a good one didn't I?  I fell in love with AMCs when I watched Mad Max, the movie.  I made my mind up then that I would own an AMX some day.  For years I thought those crazy ass cars in that movie were Australian versions of AMC Hornets or Matadors.  Of course I was disappointed to learn later that they were in fact Ford Falcon XB GTs.  But that didn't change my mind about wanting an AMC someday.  
 
OK, I talked with a guy at Comp this week.  He offered to regrind my cam with a smaller base circle.  He will reduce the base circle diameter another .040", which will place the lifters .020" lower in the lifter bore.  The base circle will now be about the same diameter as the shaft itself, which is 1.125".  I was a little concerned about the cam being too soft after another re-grind, but the Comp guy says that the heat treatment depth is .080"-.100".  I guess we'll see.
 
Even with the lifters .020" further down, I'm certain they will still bleed off pressure...just maybe not quite as much.  After all, the push rod oil hole in the lifter is never directly exposed in the oil passage either, and look how well it oils the top side.  So plenty of oil should still be blowing out the bottom.  But if Skeown's been running his engine with similar clearances without problems, I might just give it a try also.
 
SuperStockAMX - I agree with you on the complexities of modifying engines for racing.  This is my first car engine, but I built and raced Open Modified kart engines for more years than I needed to.  I realize this is a big jump up, but it wouldn't be fun if it wasn't.
 
73Hornut - you're right...I could have bushed the lifter bores.  However, until two weeks ago, I didn't even know what bushing wasSmile.  If I had it to do over, I'd probably go that route, and I still might.  I'm not confident that anyone in my area (Huntsville, AL) would be able to bush an AMC block correctly.  I just don't think they have the proper tooling.  So after listening to you guys and talking with Tim Cole at Comp, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to spend all that money on a roller cam and lifters, you may as well do it right.  I may just disassemble my engine and head to Memphis with my block.  Heck, I needed an excuse to go eat those famous ribs at the Rendezvous Club, anywayApprove  BTW - bushing the lifter bores typically costs about $600, including the bronze bushings.
 
Now I know you experienced engine builders already know this stuff, but I'm putting it in writing, so hopefully rookies like myself can come up to speed faster when they read this stuff.
 
Advantages of bushing the lifter bores are:
1.  It aligns the lifter bores with the cam (alignment is often up to 2 degrees out from the factory).
2.  By bushing the lifter bores, you can meter the amount of oil going through the push rods to the topside.  I think Tim Cole said he drills a .060" hole in the bushings prior to installing them.  You definitely won't have a pressure loss around the bottom of the lifter when you go this route.
3.  You can install the bushing so that it protrudes further out the bottom of the lifter bore.  This will give the lifter more support, which is definitely a plus for larger cams.
4.  You can hone the bushed bores to exact clearances.  Cole says .002" is what he runs.
5.  If a lifter fails and damages the lifter bore, a bushing can be replaced a lot easier than trying to repair the original cast bore.  I spoke with Alfano earlier this week, and he says "It's not a matter of if a roller lifter fails, it's when a roller lifter fails."  By the way, Alfano is also having some new Isky Red Zone EZ-Roll and EZ-RollX lifters made for AMCs that will be shrouded.  They're expensive, but won't have the pressure loss problems that Comps may have.  Plus, they do not have needle bearings (supposedly more durable).
 
So, to bush or not to bush....that is the question.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperStockAMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/24/2010 at 12:08am
I have a good relationship with Tim and he knows what he is talking about. And he knows AMC's better than you might know. 
Since your asking advice, I would do one of two things. 1) I would bush it. So what if it takes more time. I've been down these roads MANY times and as much as you think you "need" to get the wheels on the road, it's just not true. Everyone of us has used a cheaper part or gone for the quicker turn around only to have it bite us in the rear big time. And in the end it's more money and more time off the road. 
2) Purchase the latest roller lifter that doesn't have this issue and drop them in. 

Regarding the Red Zone lifter wheels with no bearing, I personally need to see more reports. I've heard of a few failures. I went down the road with Schubeck lifters which were (supposedly) state of the art composite body lifters and also their composite puck grafted to a steel body lifters. Super expensive. And when they broke (both versions); super expensive repairs to the short-block. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/24/2010 at 12:30am
 
 No, actually the real question is why are you jumping through all the hoops for no viable reason? I would be more concerned about ending up with a soft cam. Yes, the saying about "not if but when" applies to everything, but if a lifter did fail and did damage the block, you could then bush that bore. I do admire the relentless pursuit of you're lifter concern.
 
 "If it's a core with copper between the lobes, it's 8620, and it's been carborized.
If you try and re-carborize it, it will warp. You can touch up the lobes, but since the journals are already finished, they'll be junk.
We've tried masking off the journals, but that only worked about half the time.
Nitriding kills the case hardness, and the shell hardness is too thin for using with roller cam spring pressures.
There are a couple options that work, but it's cheaper to buy a new cam."
 
 CamKing
 
 
 
 Good luck, SKeown


Edited by SKeown - Jun/24/2010 at 1:14am
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