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Clutch Noise Part II...

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    Posted: Jan/04/2020 at 6:33pm
Finally got back to the 72 AMX 360 project.  When last I left you, I was fighting a weird clutch noise issue. Here is my last post(s):

http://theamcforum.com/FORUM/72-amx-clutch-noise-help_topic101177_page4.html

I'd like to say I figure it out, but I did not.  Car runs, drives, shifts great but has a VERY loud vibration/noise that happens as soon as the throw out bearing touches the clutch fingers.

I sent the new RAM Borg & Beck clutch back to the factory and they said it checked out fine.  So, I bought a new Centerforce Diaphragm Kit#DF271739 and ANOTHER new TOB.  Pedal pressure is so much nicer than the RAM, but the clutch noise is still there, if not louder.

I had a fixture made with a dummy input shaft/snout that allowed me to see what was happening when the clutch was engaged or to see what was going on it there.  Since it still made the noise without the trans in place, I know it has noting to do with the input shaft or snout.  As the TOB touches the clutch fingers the bearing begins to turn and it starts to vibrate on the snout.  This continues all the way thru pedal movement to the floor.  The old RAM clutch seemed to get better as the pedal was pushed, but the Centerforce stays consistently loud.  It does not look like the TOB is binding on the fork and seems to move freely along the snout as it's supposed to.  There are no wear marks on anything that I can see.

So...now I am wondering if perhaps I have a balance issue with my flywheel.  I am wondering if someone has replaced the flywheel at some point in time and it is out of sync with the harmonic dampener.  The engine does not seem to shake or vibrate excessively but it is kind of hard to tell with the big cam...  I just finished tearing it down again for the sixth time...and pulled the flywheel off.  The part number is 319-7219 which according to Planet Houston AMC (my eyes!) is a mystery flywheel that may or may not go on a 360.

If I do choose to buy a new flywheel, do I need to change out the dampener as well?  And, if I do replace the set, can I get away with just having the dampener, flywheel, and clutch assembly balanced?  I know, I know--I should do the entire rotating assembly for it to be right, but I really hate to pull the engine and tear it down.  

Anyway, sorry for the book--hoping someone can give some new insight on the problem.

Thanks,
Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/04/2020 at 7:45pm
Have you rebuilt the engine?  If so, was it balanced with this balancer and flywheel?

 
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Balancing should not have anything to do with this issue. After reading your original post, and assuming you have the correct TOB and fork, I think you have an out of alignment issue meaning the center bore of the bellhousing is not concentric, or in line with the pilot of the crank. The other possibility is that the back of the block where the bellhousing bolts to is not perpendicular to the crank. Or another way to put it, parallel to the surface of the flywheel. You might think I'm nuts but I've seen both of these issues before. Both will make the clutch chatter upon engagement but it sounds like you might have not driven the car enough yet to feel it happen. With a dial indicator and a mag base you can measure both of these. I would check this before tearing it apart once again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtoman_us Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/04/2020 at 10:51pm
Helped a good friend on his 70 Mustang chase a very similar same symptoms way back in the day.  Pilot bearing was the culprit.  If I recall we tried all of your remedies. Finally pulled the bronze bushing out of the crank end when fitted on the output shaft could see the wear and wobble.  Changed it for a ball bearing type and problem solved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/04/2020 at 11:39pm
Pilot bushing, or the TO bearing is too loose on the trans snout, so that it's not centered when it touches the fingers, and wobbles around like a random orbital sander.

I don't know if there's a spec for clearance from the snout/bearing retainer to the ID of the "non-moving" portion of the TO bearing. Loose enough to not bind, but not so loose it can go off center.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccowx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/05/2020 at 1:48am
Have you made sure the TOB is right? Reason I ask is that I have a 1970 car and I used the RAM 88499HDX clutch kit, which is the heavy duty version of what you are using I believe. Great clutch, works well, BUT I had a clutch failure because it is issued with the wrong TOB. 

In 1970 AMC went to a slightly smaller throw out bearing, which is mentioned in PAS. It seems that this information is not known at RAM because all of their kits come with the larger TOB for a pre 1969 car. I guess this makes sense in a way since the larger bearing was the reccomended performance version. I have told RAM about this several times and even had a warranty serviced for a new clutch, but I don't get the feeling that they ever did anything about the incorrect TOB in their "67-74 clutch kit". If they have left it as is for the heavy duty kit I suspect they did not for the standard kit either. Perhaps Centerforce is using the same information?  

Unfortunately, my bearing made a rattling, grinding type noise and the only way to get rid of it was to push down on the pedal and take up the slack in the linkages. When I took it apart, the TOB had failed, along with the clutch, and they had worn away the bearing retainer on the trans until it simply broke through. 

If you need the correct bearing number for a 70 and up clutch I can find it.

Chris

PS: I happen to have my maintenance log on the coffee table, so here goes on the part numbers. The larger 69 and earlier type is #N1489. The smaller 70 and up version is #N1491. #1489 is the one that came in the 88499HDX kit and I would imagine they put the same one in the 772 kit also.   


Edited by ccowx - Jan/05/2020 at 2:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AMXrated Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/05/2020 at 10:40am
Originally posted by mbwicz mbwicz wrote:

Have you rebuilt the engine?  If so, was it balanced with this balancer and flywheel?

 

The car was completely in pieces when I got it and I completely rebuilt the engine and added Wiseco aluminum flattop pistons and Scat connecting rods, new bearings. Block was bored .030 over and .010 off the mains.  Also had .015 taken off the flywheel.  Mistake I made was assuming the dampener and flywheel was original to the car and not having the whole rotating assembly balanced when I had it out.  Probably a big mistake since I changed out the pistons/rods/bearings which no doubt changed the rotating assembly mass from factory balance.

Regardless, the engine seems to run great even at high RPM without any shaking or vibration (aside from the TOB...).  Probably will manifest itself later with a failed bearing or leaking seal...

Thanks.
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Originally posted by Mopar_guy Mopar_guy wrote:

Balancing should not have anything to do with this issue. After reading your original post, and assuming you have the correct TOB and fork, I think you have an out of alignment issue meaning the center bore of the bellhousing is not concentric, or in line with the pilot of the crank. The other possibility is that the back of the block where the bellhousing bolts to is not perpendicular to the crank. Or another way to put it, parallel to the surface of the flywheel. You might think I'm nuts but I've seen both of these issues before. Both will make the clutch chatter upon engagement but it sounds like you might have not driven the car enough yet to feel it happen. With a dial indicator and a mag base you can measure both of these. I would check this before tearing it apart once again.

Thanks for the input.

I have checked and rechecked the alignment of the bell housing to the block, both the hole concentricity to the crank, the parallel of the trans mounting face, and the perpendicularity of the face to the crank. I have also checked the transmission snout/input shaft perpendicularity and concentricity. Every think is within a few thousandths. I have also check (and rechecked) the run out of the flywheel relative to the block in both directions and it is also within .005" which tells me that the flywheel is not warped or the crank flange bent.

Like, you I was sure it was an alignment issue with the trans input shaft so I made a fixture that replicated the transmission input shaft which I bolted onto the back of the bell housing to take the trans out of the equation.  I left the spline off the shaft so it stayed stationary and did not turn in the pilot bearing. The TOB started to chatter the second it touched the clutch fingers even with no real pressure put on the clutch pedal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AMXrated Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/05/2020 at 11:06am
Originally posted by gtoman_us gtoman_us wrote:

Helped a good friend on his 70 Mustang chase a very similar same symptoms way back in the day.  Pilot bearing was the culprit.  If I recall we tried all of your remedies. Finally pulled the bronze bushing out of the crank end when fitted on the output shaft could see the wear and wobble.  Changed it for a ball bearing type and problem solved.

Thanks for the input.  

The pilot bearing is new and at one point I suspected it as well so during one of my many tear downs I coated the tip of the transmission input shaft with blue Dykem to see how much engagement I was getting.  Took the engine up to 3500 rpm with the clutch pedal in/out.  There was some missing dye but it was very minimal (and probably mostly from trying to wrestle the transmission back into place.)  

Do they make ball bearing pilots for AMC engines? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AMXrated Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/05/2020 at 11:23am
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

Pilot bushing, or the TO bearing is too loose on the trans snout, so that it's not centered when it touches the fingers, and wobbles around like a random orbital sander.

I don't know if there's a spec for clearance from the snout/bearing retainer to the ID of the "non-moving" portion of the TO bearing. Loose enough to not bind, but not so loose it can go off center.


Tom, thanks for the response.

The old snout was badly worn and so I had a new snout made out of P20 steel for the bearing cover (I own a machine shop that does high tolerance work).  The snout diameter was  turned to 1.313"on the nose and the ID of the TOB (Centerforce # N1491) is 1.311".  So, .001" of clearance radially. I actually bought the bearing first and then had the snout machined to size.  

Maybe that's too tight?  My thought was that since the TOB moves in all three directions with the clutch fork (side-to-side and back and forth), there should be no binding unless it hits the inside of the clutch fork (and it does not).  

Pilot bearing is new and I feel good about the input shaft alignment.  This is my third TOB and they all make the same noise.  I know the noise is coming from the TOB, but I don't think it is a bad TOB causing it (if that makes any sense...)
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