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CA SMOG - 1981 AMC EAGLE SX/4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sx4 eagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2017 at 9:04pm
I an hoping somewhere, someone has a technical reference that is buried away in a file cabinet, sure, this is an esoteric concern, but I bet someone has factory specs for Carter Carbuerator's following that company's assigned model numbers, revisions made to suit specific applications.
I can speculate, short of that reference popping up out of a collectors dusty archive, all of us Eagle owner's sharing which model numbers, like carb version #8303 as documented on my cars factory build sheet, sharing this data will shed light on these assigned Carter BBD model numbers, which are clearly revisions of the original BBD carb, but each modified rev was for a one specific application, like for a 1981 CA smog equipped Eagle SX/4 with 4.2L Six cyl, no A/C, catalytic with air pump, manual trans etc, etc, etc.
Hey, if no one asks, there will be no exploration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2017 at 9:17pm
The Carburetor Doctor says they offer a service manual which contains the specs for all 71-up BBD carbs.

Less than $10.  See:  http://www.carbkitsource.com/carbs/tech/Carter/BBD-index.html

Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote amcfool1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2017 at 12:39am
hi, I am glad that you are looking to keep your
 BBD, ( btw, that's Ball and Ball, type D), a carb whose origins go way back before i was born! It has been hated on almost since it's inception, for, as far as I can tell, no really good reason, except maybe, 'cause it's not a Holley!
The BBD is a good piece of engineering. It has no power valves to blow, and no diaphragms to get eaten up by our new style gasoline. New, (or rebuilt) stepper motors are still available. (from China, but wtf).
As mentioned above, the "Sol-Vac", is a critical piece of this system. This is what actually controls your idle, with/without AC. These are still available, but getting scarce. You MUST have a solid, leak free, vacuum system, without this, no amount of 'cussing/praying will get the car to run right.
The one true criticism of this carb is that it's not a "Performance" carb. True enough, it's not, but, the cars it was installed in were not "Performance" cars, they were to be reliable, smooth, everyday drivers, and this the Carter BBD can give you in spades!
As for California spec carbs, well, I have never lived in, or even been to!, California. ( people tell me its nice!) the 49 state BBD is the 8308, I really can't see there being much of a difference, except maybe slightly leaner jets. I do know the computer was calibrated (designed?) a little different from the 49 state version. And, the CA spec computer is the only one still available, at almost any parts place, remanufactured, PN 79-1733, about $180. Thank you!, California! I have one running right now in my East Coast 84 Eagle. Runs great! Without Cali smog laws, this would probably not be available at this late date, 2017, but it is! Again, Thank You California! You guys ROCK!
If you plan on keeping your car stock, or close to stock, may I suggest getting one of these computers now, who knows how much longer they will be available. I bought a spare, and oh, there is a core charge.

ok, now, same topic, slight change of focus.
I have 77 Hornet AMX, with the 258 and first year, non electronic 2bbl Carter BBD. got it about 5 years ago, and have been slowly, as money allows, "restifying" it. Just finished installing a brand new!, full tilt boogie, built up 258, car was originally a 258/SR-4 4spd car, was going to go the V8 route, but changed my mind. Kept it a six, but a high dollar, "everything but the girl" built six, I mean, cam, roller rockers, compression increase, SBC valves w/positive seals, 82 Eagle intake/exhaust, double roller, etc, etc. My engine builder estimates this engine at about .9 to .95HP/CI, more or less double the stock 77 HP!
And, the crowning touch, a NEW, custom built T5 from MDL in Idaho.
Just drove it for the second time today, still breaking motor in, but, gentlemen, this a different car! than the old anemic 77 258/SR-4! It drives almost like a modern car! Sucker is FAST! Let me say that again! this thing is FAST! even keeping in mind I'm not beating on it, still in breakin mode, Fast! That MDL T5 shifts like a dream! Not cheap, but, imo, money well spent.

OK, we were talking about the BBD, sorry, got distracted, ANYWAY.....
this hot new motor is still running through it's original 2bbl BBD, though I think someone over the years has changed it. It has that weird (to me) MOPAR vac fitting on the back, that AMC never used, that sent vacuum to the MOPAR vacuum distribution center, or what ever it was, so, I think it's a BBD from a Mopar, gave me fits when I first got the car, the seller knew what he was doing, he got that 'ol 77 running with whatever he had on hand, just barely, we still had to trailer it home, but it DID run, just like crap, so, after a couple of months of chasing my tail, I broke down and took that BBD off and apart, and guess what, the thing had the wrong base to main body gasket, so, thats why there was NO vacuum available at any port at any time! This is where my BBD education started, and is continuing.

So, though its running ok, my new engine simply needs more carb. Got the 82 2bbl intake, looks good, don't really want to go the Offy 4bbl route, though it remains an option. Another is the 2150 route, with which i am familiar, having run one for over 15 years (without a single problem) on Eagle #1. Another is the Weber, also an option, though this would be new to me.
And last, and the way I am thinking right now, is to stick with the BBD, but get one from, say, a Mopar 318, and try to get it to work.
Stock AMC BBD=195 cfm
Mopar 64-69 273 V8 BBD=275 cfm
          68+    318 V8 BBD=285 cfm
          71       360 V8 BBD=350 cfm
          62-72  383 V8 BBD=365 cfm (has large air cleaner base)

btw, did not make above numbers up, got 'em from a respectable MOPAR source, and all of the above carbs are available in various stages of junk to great on ebay or elsewhere, at their respective price points.

Not committed yet, but i do like a challenge, so may just try the big BBD route, the 383 one looks good.
so, how should I up carb my new, no expense spared 258, goal is a smooth, powerful, cruiser, not a racer.
All opinions/ideas/gawd you are so stupid type feedback, is welcome.

good day, gentlemen, gz
          

















george z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaemonForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2017 at 2:59am
Wow, lots of input here. My resolve would be to simply pull the engine, apply new seals, swap carb with a downdraft style Carter and maybe change to a mild dual pattern cam timed -4ยบ.

Curious, what is your typical cruise speed? My 83 Limited was outfitted with the 258 and feedback Carter BBD, AIR injection and pulse injection loop, lockup TF998 and tall 2.72 gears in a D30-IFS-Disco and Model 35 LSD. It would idle sub-500 and cruise all day at 2200. This thing isn't qualified for offroad let alone a snowbank but that's changing with a 285 and 5spd. Pretty sure I'll be dropping gears soon though. The thought of cruising at 1800 is a little weird. Do you have a wide ratio 4spd?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2017 at 7:48am
Just to support the "BBD" been using them for years. Fact! nThey are too small. Otherwise they run fine. Built a 6 like above and the only limit it had was not enough carburetor.
It was fast AND would pass Arizona Smog.
I went the MOPAR fuel injection route at the time AND a 2200 rpm stall converter to the lock up converter 904 to get it to work with the algorithms the FI worked with.
This on a 1980 Spirit with a 2.53 rear axle. The combination "smoked" and now have it running since 2002 that way with 45,000 miles on it. As to cruising speed? That's silly! It is a lot of engine with tall gearing. Between the rear axle and tires it is geared at 32 mph/1000 rpm. The As state speed limit is 75 mph, CA is 70. I can set the tack on 3100 rpm and point it west that friend is 99.2 mph which it will run for hours in the 100+ heat with the A/C going and the radio set for enjoyment.
The WOT shift point for the passing gear to high shift that is 2 to 3 is 75 mph or about 4500 rpm which it sees and when it does the car rocks.
Clifford for years has sold six cylinder performance parts under the advertisement of 6 = 8 looking at that and following smoky's ruling an engine is an air pump? Forget about the number of cylinders it is a built 258 cu in engine. It could be an eight, or maybe a big four, but it happens to be a six and probably of all the cars I have built one that gave me more fun than any other. It is actually faster I believe and certainly more versatile than the leaning tower of power I built in the era of 101 octane fuel with 13:1 compression and a 400 CFM Carter AFB but it too left a lasting impression.
(Leaning tower of power is MOPAR 225 with a .100 over bore giving 239 Cu in. ) In the garage I have a 232 with an Isky 270HL Cam, an offy manifold and a 400 CFM Carter AFB and it is looking for a home. I have both a 904 and a T5 ready to go on it. I just do not have a place to put it.
Sorry for those who are afraid to twist the AMC I-6 a bit tight. I'm not, but I build freeway flyers and they certainly are one when built.
Again, nothing wrong with a BBD. They were installed OEM for the purpose of having a reliable economy car and they worked well. At least for me. I have rebuilt them many times! Why? I have owned many cars since I started driving in 1958. They are just too small to run much rpm, but two of them would work well. At 193 CFM they are what they are. Vacuum lines fail, the car runs lousy and many blame the carburetor. Wrong!
As to performance? An engine can be built.
As to sixes?
Jaguar, BMW, AstonMarton, Hudson, Ferrari, even Chevrolet and if you look hard the overhead cam Jeep engine received notoriety for a given country in South America for it's performance and it too had an AMC/Renault heritage. And don't for get the Australian Chrysler Pacer
Sixes are not economy engines, they are engines. Build one! They can be fun
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcfool1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2017 at 6:21pm
hi, the 84 Eagle, automatic non lockup, cruises at about 23-2400 @ 70, with 2:35 gears
The Hornet has not been on interstate yet, but trans is a MDL T5 5speed, with .73 OD, should cruise at around 1900 @ 70, with 2:73 gears. thanks, gz
george z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2017 at 7:42pm
If you have done the math right the Eagle is about 30MPH/1000 rpm and the Hornet is about 36mph/1000 rpm.
Depending on the engine set up they will work. Most modern cars manufactured from about the late 80's to the middle/late 90's were about 32/mph 1000 rpm.
My new Dodge Caravan is about 40mph/1000 rpm which is tall, but it has a hand full of gears to make up for it.
My Javelin with a T5 and 3.15:1 is about 32mph/1000 rpm. My Hornet with a 700R4 and 2.73 gears is about 40mph/1000 rpm and the engine needs to have a very careful tune to lug that far but it works. The tires have quite a diameter on it.
70 390 5spd Donohue
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76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
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