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Brakes and Bonded Vs Riveted

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Gremlinamc1975 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:06pm
Getting ready to do the brakes on the Gremlin, and was looking for some info.

what i have is a 1970 Gremlin 232, all drum manual,

as far as i know, no brake work has ever done to this vehicle. i have a few wheel cylinders leaking, and was looking at rebuilding the whole system, except the Master Cylinder and Distribution Block as i believe they work (But haven't tested yet).

What would you recommend, I'm looking at replacing all Wheel Cylinders, Shoes, Drum Hardware Kit, Drum Self Adjuster Kit, Rubber Hydraulic Hose.

and ruff idea what it cost to have the drums turned? or will it be cheaper in the long run to replace the drums.

And what would be the advantage to Bonded over Riveted.

Bonded is glued, but would cover a little bit more surface space
but wouldn't the riveted also be partially glued also?


Any thoughts would be welcome, Brands to watch out for, such things like this would help.

1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poormansMACHINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:21pm
I'd reconsider tossing the master cylinder on the list. They wear just like a wheel cylinder.
Drum turning cost is a regional thing and is only possible if the drum is salvageable. Each drum has a measurable limit as to how much can be removed. The maximum is cast right into the drum face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:27pm
Hey Grem,
 
Just my $.02 on brakes. Just finished overhauling the brakes on my SC--front disc, rear drum, and it wasn't much fun (no pun intended!)!  My rear brakes had never been touched and were original.  I like your idea of replacing all parts, although I found the brake spring hold down pins and bottom cups were of inferior quality to the Bendix parts on the car since '69.  Other than those parts, everything (in the rear) except the F & R lines were replaced in my car.  I replaced the MC since all other parts were new and also decided to use DOT 5, silicone fluid, as Dot3/4 fluid on paint sucks!!  I turned my drums as they'd never been turned before and it's cheap--about $10/ea.  New drums, as long as yours haven't been turned too much (more than .060) or are cracked are far more expensive.  As far as riveted vs. bonded shoes are concerned, I looked far and wide for "organic material" shoes. The semi-metallic shoes you'll find in Napa, for example, contain too many metal particles for our old drums. I finally found decent shoes in organic format from kragen/oreilly and they were not pricey.  My original shoes were riveted and the new shoes were also riveted, but the right shoe compound, IMO, is more important than how the shoes are attached to the metal structure.  Hope this helps you.
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramblinrev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 3:36pm
I agree with changing all the parts, including the master cylinder. I like RockAuto.com for the widest variety of parts to choose from, some at very good prices. I used to think the way to go was a new master cylinder rather than a rebuilt, but have had a not so good experience with a new one made in China (sold under a great brand name.) I'd take a rebuilt one done by Cardone instead.
 
Remember to bench bleed the new master cylinder (as per instructions) before installing it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 69 ambassador 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 4:28pm
Bonded shoes have 100% friction material to backing contact and shed heat faster to the metal parts better which could give another application or two before fade occurs.  Riveted does not shed heat as well but can be more secure than a questionable bond from china.  I agree with the organic material.  I have 300,000 miles on the front rotors on my car and they have never had anything but organic pads.  If I put semi-metalic pads on I'm sure my rotors would be gone in short order.  Same holds true for shoes.  If you are not road racing then the original style should be fine.  If uprgading for better performance then get new finned drums and run a modern pad/shoe.  The wear will be accelerated but you will stop better.  A turned drum has less contact with the shoe because of the diameter change.  In the old days all replacement shoes were made with extra material so you could grind the shoe to match the new diameter.  I still have a shoe grinder but it is from a time when asbestose dust was not bad for you and smoking made you live longer.  I won't be using it.  If you buy old NOS or NORS shoes and they seem to be too thick it is because they need to be ground to fit.  Most modern stuff is made to be thrown out and replaced so they usually fit when new.
Steve Brown

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremlinamc1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 4:47pm
Ok so you talked me into include the Master Cylinder, guess i better not half rump it, Wagner looks like the only one in the photo that is even close to what mine even looks like, i like to keep it looking as original as possible,  but it says this in the description.

WAGNER Part # MC56193 {#F56193}
w/Man. Brake; w/Vac. Boost; 1" Bore

 that mean it can be used in both applications?

Also is it all 9" drums or are there 10 in the rear?

1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremlinamc1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 4:51pm
and does any one know where to get a cheap brake drum Micrometer, remember my grandfather having one, was plastic, but he is a little ways away


**Edit**

Found one simular,
http://www.automotivetoolsonline.com/KD-Tools-3377-Brake-Resetting-Gauge-KD3377_p_11465.html#


Edited by Gremlinamc1975 - Mar/27/2011 at 4:53pm

1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 5:01pm
You can buy from Galvin, APD, or Kennedy and you should be assured that the MC is the correct one. I'm guessing that what you found will most likely work.  Do you have a TSM? If so, there are instructions for how "far" the brake shoes need to contact the drum. In my TSM, it states that about 1/4" of threads in the adjuster need to show, but you can also do it by feel.  As my friends told me, it shouldn't be too easy to install the drum, but not too hard, either. Then, the TSM talks about backing up the vehicle, doing hard stops, which will adjust the brakes as well. I don't believe you need that gauge.
 
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremlinamc1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 6:59pm
Well iv always liked the Gauge, and has always made installing the drum easier for me, and it gives me a reason for my girlfriend to let me buy another tool ;) just tell her i can use it on your truck too when it comes to brakes..

I do need a TSM... but where is the best place to grab one, i don't care if its a reprint or pdf.

1970 Gremlin 232, 1974 Gremlin, 1977 Gremlin X, 1977 Gremlin X, 1979 Spirit DL,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/27/2011 at 7:24pm
There are several right now on eBay for $50+.  In the search box, type in "1970 amc manual" without the quotes and you'll see them. You may also want to get one of the Haynes manuals for early '70's cars as well on eBay.  I like lots of reading materials about my vehicle!
Steve
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