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Brake suggestions

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CoffinMaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CoffinMaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Brake suggestions
    Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 1:26am
So after quite a while of not working on my Javelin, I got back to it today and went through the brakes.
No leaks anywhere, all new lines, hoses, master, distribution block, calipers and pads, shoes and drums, I believe everything is new. It has an 8&3/4 rear end out of a 68 Roadrunner, so all brake hardware back there is Mopar, I believe 10x2.5 inch stuff. The front is the disc brake kit from APD. I can't say for certain what master cylinder it is, as I went through about 7 trying to get one that didn't break or leak on me.

When I had left it, It just really needed to be bled but no matter how much bleeding I did, it was hardly working. I re-parked it halfway in my driveway and half in the street above the gutter to try to get it as level as I could since my driveway is slanted, and after bleeding the rear my helper told me it was very tight. I got air bubbles out of the passenger rear and not much out of the driver rear but I was told it was tight so I went to the front. As soon as I bled the front passenger, he said it got much looser. I assume that from all the pumping for the back that the front just had pressure and me bleeding it let it out and it got loose, however there were very few bubbles in the front passenger and 0 in the front driver side. 

I drove it around the block and I'd say it's working about 70%, enough to stop it but definitely not on a dime, more like a golf green if I'm honest. From not being able to stop it from rolling down a driveway to stopping from 30 mph, it's quite an improvement, but hardly where it needs to be. At this point, should I just keep going with the bleeding process even if I see straight fluid, or is there another spot to check? 

And on a side note, my driveway is slanted, I'm not on any hill but it is slanted perhaps 10-20 degrees, and since I got more air bubbles out when it was level I'm assuming my driveway had enough slant to make a difference. would there be any advantage to pulling in backwards and having the rear be a few inches higher than the front? It wouldn't put the wheel cylinders above the lines or master on the firewall, but it would be better than having the front up higher and creating a greater distance height-wise between the wheel cylinders and the master correct?
1973 AMC Javelin AMX, 360 727
1970 Mercury Cougar, 351C AOD
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mbwicz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 2:59am
Did you bench bleed the master cylinder?  Those can be difficult to get the air out of on the car. 

Unfortunately, you need to keep going until you get a good pedal. 
1970 AMX, one step forward, one step back. Both steps cost time and money.
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CoffinMaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CoffinMaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 9:59am
I'm sure back when I put it in I bled it but it's been so long I can't be 100% sure. I'd rather not take it out after making progress but I'll probably rebleed it to make sure and then I can bleed the whole system again.
1973 AMC Javelin AMX, 360 727
1970 Mercury Cougar, 351C AOD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 1:23pm
I'm guessing you did pull the pin on the combo pressure differential prop. valve body when bleeding...not doing so makes bleeding tough.
72 Javelin SST P code 360/auto/AC/rear defrost /Go Pack/Polar White w blue cord interior.
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White70JavelinSST View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 2:06pm
It is possible to bench bleed a master while in the car. The difficulty is getting the car level front to back and side to side.
Have you tried a power bleeder?
Have you tried any other type of bleeding method? Other than the conventional two person pedal down bleeder open, then close bleeder, pedal up, do again until pedal is solid, no matter how many times it takes.
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CoffinMaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 2:16pm
I didn't pull the pin when I had the original valve block but I have an aftermarket ssbc combo valve with adjustable pressure knob now, I don't believe there's anything to mess with there.

 I have tried power bleeding with a compressor and also with the hand vacuum pump,  I didn't have much luck with either of those and had got a lot more progress through conventional two person bleeding. I will try them again as they are much easier since I don't always have a helping hand.

I also do prefer to bleed the master cylinder while it's in the car but I was unsure if it was less effective than doing it in a vise. I'll get the car level again and try to bleed it in the car to see if there are bubbles because if I didn't believe this one in a vise I must have done it in the car on the slanted driveway so it wouldn't have been a very effective bleed.
1973 AMC Javelin AMX, 360 727
1970 Mercury Cougar, 351C AOD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2019 at 8:51pm
how long did it sit between assembly and bleed/drive?

I think you are saving no time at all by not removing the master cyl and bench bleeding it. It will take longer, lots of fluid, and might not work, even. Mounted in a bench vise, levelled with a level, you can use short lengths of brake line to direct fluid back into the reservoir. Tighten into the ports, run the open ends into the reservoir, below fluid level. Then bleeding is done with a very small amount of fluid, just what's in the reservoir. Fat screwdriver in the piston and push with your hip until zero (0) bubbles. Even the tiniest, microscopic, air bubbles are gone, after 10 minutes of pressing slowly, releasing slowly.

Even a pinhead, or pinpoint, size air bubble you will feel with your foot. Absolutely zero air bubbles is the goal.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CoffinMaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2019 at 12:02am
It's been multiple months since assembly, it bled when assembled and driven but sat for a long while. I go through the same process with 2 lines going into the reservoir from the ports, just instead of the vice its mounted in the car, however I was just wondering if there was an advantage to doing it with the vise and screwdriver, such as being able to push further in than I would be able to with a pedal and rod.
1973 AMC Javelin AMX, 360 727
1970 Mercury Cougar, 351C AOD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2019 at 8:09am
Originally posted by mbwicz mbwicz wrote:

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder?  Those can be difficult to get the air out of on the car. 

Unfortunately, you need to keep going until you get a good pedal. 


This. Using conventional methods, it is unbelievably difficult to get all the air out of a new MC unless you bench bleed it first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2019 at 8:11am
Bench bleeding will accommodate full depth movement of the piston, however I'm not really convinced that it's necessary to fully depress the piston in the bore to get all the air bubbles out.

Just for curiosity's sake, I hope you are not using silicone based brake fluid. IIRC that can leave a spongy pedal just because silicone based brake fluid is a compressible fluid.  I've never suggested to anyone to use silicone based brake fluid in old cars or race cars.
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
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