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Brake pull, front drum brakes

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uncljohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2015 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by NutmegCT NutmegCT wrote:


 Maybe that's what you mean by "Wagner self-centering shoes


O.k., I'll tell you what I'll do as you do not have any servicing data. I will scan the pages in my 1962 Motors service manual as a JPG and send them to you as an attachment to an e-mail document.

I do not what parts are available for your brakes but there are AMC vendors that you can touch base with for wheel cylinders if you need them and KANTER may carry parts for them.

From the picture it looks to me as if the parts while old are in quite good shape and highly serviceable but then again I have been making existing brakes work for a long time reliably.

The brakes are not attached to anything at the bottom as they are what is called "dual Servo" brakes. The DRUM contains the configuration of the shoes to keep them in the circle that they are in. That means the wheel cylinder pushes both shoes against the drum and they do not need any thing to keep the bottom in place. As the drum turns, the turning action tries to drag the leading shoe around with it, the shoe closest to the front of the car, and in doing so it pushes the leading shoe against the trailing shoe. That action forces more pressure against the trailing shoe and makes the brakes more efficient. The wheel cylinder is the 1st "servo" the pushing action of the leading shoe against the trailing shoe is the 2nd servo. Thus dual servo.
Alcohol works well in cleaning up the shoes. It dissolves brake fluid and will restore them to good operation if you need to use the over again. No problem, done regularly when the cars were newer and drum brakes were seen more often.
Who knows, if rebuild kits are available for the wheel cylinders, they might even be rebuildable.
Not a big fan of converting to disc brakes if there is not particular reason to. I have worked on too many problematic conversions.
To me it is a personal preference issue and that of having the money to do it.
Send me your e-mail and give me some time.
Actually from the picture it looks to me as they are serviceable with some TLC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 5:30am
"O.k., I'll tell you what I'll do as you do not have any servicing data. I will scan the pages in my 1962 Motors service manual as a JPG and send them to you as an attachment to an e-mail document. "

I've already got the Owner's Handbook and the Technical Service Manual.  What does your Motor manual show that's different?

Thanks.
Tom M.

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uncljohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 6:26am
My apology! ^^^^^^ I did not read carefully that you already had the "Technical Service Manual" The TSM. A lesson there to be learned. "Read Carefully" One I should have learned at least so that you do not do something stupid as I did.
The TSM should be more than adequate for you and so many people it seems has not purchased one.
But it did have two good pictures and a very nice explanation of how the brake worked. But the offer was extended under the self induced false impression the only thing you had was the owners manual.
As stated, I used to try to purchase one about every 4 years because that was the years covered by a MOTORS MANUAL and I lived at that time in an area where salt was used heavily during the winter. This pretty much caused a car to be come so rusty in about 5 years all it was good for was so much junk.
I would at that time try to purchase a new used car about 2 - 3 years old, 2 if I could, finance it for 2 years and after it was paid for drive it as long as I could until something major happened and rather than attempt a repair, drive it to a junk yard and purchase another 2 year old car. It would have by then something over 100,000 miles on it and the engine was generally getting about 800 miles to a quart of oil and major pieces of the body were missing due to rust.
This let me build a fair library of Motors Manuals. They seemed to disappear some where in the early 1990's and I bought a couple of Chilton manuals. As time passed the individual product specific repair manuals replaced the 800 some odd pages of a "Motors Auto Repair Manual" and I bought as needed one of them. Today if I am at swap meet I purchase a Motors Manual to plug into my library if I see one in fair shape and it is about $10.00 or so. Recently I was asked information about a 1935 Ford which I had a Motors manual for and now I find I have one that covers your Rambler.
It's fun to have a technical library! And as years have passed it has proven useful to have one.
I might add that having service information and being able to perform my own repairs for the most part allowed me to drive cars I could not afford to drive if I had to pay some one else to fix them. A truism that is still valid today.

Edited by uncljohn - Nov/26/2015 at 6:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blumontag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 7:04am
Long shot, but I'll mention that I had a similar problem when we first got our 72 gremlin with all drums. Turned out that a previous owner had wrong size shoes on it. They were one size bigger than the correct ones, but looked normal as installed. (Didn't WORK normally, of course!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 7:09am
Thanks Blumontag.  Say, what was the symptom you were having?  Random pulling to left and right when brakes were applied?

Also, should I be worried about the appearance of that wheel cylinder?  I plan to rebuild them, but wondered what you think of the "wet and dirty" look.

Tom M.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blumontag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 7:24am
Honestly, I am not the mechanic in the family. My brother is, and when confronted with the severe pulling, he bought a new spring/hardware kit and adjusted everything per the TSM. Did not solve the problem. We also got a new brake distribution switch , because ours was not working. After my bro left town, I took the Gremlin to a local shop that works on older cars. They installed distribution switch, installed new cylinders, and new master cylinder...car still pulled when braking. (Can't recall now which way it pulled). Anyway, the shop finally  figured out that the shoes were wrong size (I had left the TSM in the car with them). NAPA lists three different size shoes.
 No problem since.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/26/2015 at 7:27am
"Honestly, I am not the mechanic in the family."

Sounds like me!

Think I'll check the shoe size later this morning.  (I wonder where I can find the specs on what measurements they should be?)

Have a great Thanksgiving!
Tom M.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocklandrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/27/2015 at 3:02am
If you actually have an AMC 1958 Technical Service Manual then ALL specifications for anything to do with the brakes will be found in the BRAKES & WHEEL section. You made a previous comment about there being no step by step instructions on how to disassemble or assemble the brakes. TSM's were written for mechanics in the dealer's service department and assume a technical knowledge and experience on the part of the reader in certain areas, the brakes being one of them. OH, before I forget, there should be NO wet/dry condition inside that drum. Rebuild or replace those brake cylinders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/27/2015 at 5:54am
The best way to check size is to compare replacement's to what you have. And as I write this I am reminded of the some times horrible condition things are in before the need for repairs becomes evident.
The pictures you have of your brakes at the moment show the parts almost as if they are in an unworn condition. Just old and dirty. Again, I would have probably looked at them and figured I would use them over again after cleaning them based simply on the photographic condition.
But remember, the thread started by saying they were in good shape but yo u had as it turns out no idea how to take the drums off thus raising the question of how it was that you determined they were in good shape. A question yet un-answered. And apparently you had driven the car in the condition the photograph indicates.
They need service and needing service is a very good reason as to why the symptoms were described as they were.
Service can be described in multiple fashions meaning disassembly and cleaning all the way to spending deep pocket money for a disc brake conversion and blowing the things off.
My comments are based on 50 years of working on the things and budget I have to live with in up to and including having no idea what parts are available at this time.
If you have never worked on brakes at all in your life, this will be an experience.
Start with finding out what you can purchase for them. Wheel cylinders and brake shoes and if you can get them use them.
If you have a problem ask, you have a TSM it should answer most of the problems.
Do one side at a time. Why? The other side being together gives you a picture of what they should look like so you can look and see if they are correct.
There are special tools for working on drum brakes one of which makes removing the springs easier to do, a tool I never had and learned to use a Philips screw driver instead.
And a brake adjusting tool that I have owned, but before I got one, I used a flat blade screw driver to work with. A bit harder to use but I did not have one.
Sorry, I have worked on drum brakes ranging from full mechanical as on a 1930 ford to the latest versions used on many cars and probably are still in use on the rear of some cars and large trucks still use them.
They work well when properly serviced.
The pictures show that they need service so start with finding out what parts you can get for them and go from there.
I know what I would do with them if they were mine.
And what I would do may not be the best suggestion for you to do.


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76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NutmegCT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/27/2015 at 6:36am
Again, thanks to everyone for the suggestions.  Believe me, the details and pointers are appreciated!

I'm new to all this, so need all the help I can get.  And sometimes it's tough to describe parts and mechanical issues just using words and photos - but I try as best as I can.

I had removed the LF drum without problem, but couldn't get the RF drum off.  So I wondered if I was missing something.

Yes, I have an AMC 1958 Technical Service Manual.  Why are folks are still questioning this?

The TSM gives the measurements for primary (2x7.62")and secondary (2x9.82") linings - not shoe size.  A previous poster had said he found he had incorrect size shoes, so I asked about shoes.

Sometimes comments overlook what's already been said, and seem more defensive than helpful.

Onward through the fog!
Tom M.

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