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Borg-Warner T-10 Gear Question

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12Gauge View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 12Gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Borg-Warner T-10 Gear Question
    Posted: Dec/03/2007 at 8:30am
Hi Guys:
 
Part two of my driveline update project is to get my old T-10 freshened with new syncros, shafts, seals and gaskets and what ever else it needs.
 
Right now, the trannie will pop out of second gear most times if I am engaged in second and decellerating.
 
Also some times (once every tenth time) I can get some gear mesh grind going from second to third.
 
Having discussed this with my local T-10 rebuilder, he is suggesting that since my car has the 3.15 rear end that I should consider going to a taller first gear.  He is suggesting that the 2.23 first could be replaced with a 2.64 which would make the "out of the hole" pull almost exactly the same or even a little bit better than a 3.54 rear end plus it will be easier to drive from a dead stop and really light up the tires in first...
 
So... do you think I should do that first gear change?  Any pros or cons?
The read end is fine so I would want to leave that alone.
 
Data:
 
Current:  3.15 Rear and 2.23 First
 
22 MPH at 2000 RPM
44 MPH at 4000 RPM
 
 
Hypotheical  3.54 Rear and 2.23 First
 
20 MPH at 2000 RPM
39 MPH at 4000 RPM
 
Suggested  3.15 Rear and 2.64 First
 
19 MPH at 2000 RPM
37 MPH at 4000 RPM
Art In Connecticut

Nothing Lasts Forever... If you give it enough TIME

1968 AMX 390 4-Speed

1991 ERA Cobra Replica - 428 & Toploader

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ehmc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/03/2007 at 9:21am
Wow that is a pretty tall 1st gear combination you have now.
I would definitely run the 2.64 Ist with the 3.15 gears.
Man I run a 2.20 1st with a 3.73 rear and just going to my spare "get home" 3.55's when I blew the 3.73's at the drags I immediately noticed that I had to clutch it more from stop lights and the car wasn't as responsive.
Actually I'm building a wide ratio 2.64 Super T-10 to run with 3.08's in a Big Block Vette.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XJ-001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/03/2007 at 3:08pm
I'd do it, wait, I did do it!

When I bought my 70 AMX it had the 2.23 close ratio T-10 and 3.91 gears, not the best combo for interstate driving but I could take off from a dead stop in 3rd or burn thru 20 gallons of gas in about 50 miles! Before my CA trip in '04, I installed a 3.15 rear end, which sure helped at highway speeds, but sucked on take-off. With all the hill driving in CA and the trip home, I smoked the clutch. After I got back, I found a good used T-10 with the 2.64 low gear set which I installed (along with a new clutch). That made all the difference in the world! I'm also running 265/65-16's in the rear, which didn't help the 2.23/3.15's get going any. It's still not as 'sparkling' as it was with the 2.23 low/3.91 rear, but a MAJOR improvement over the 2.23/3.15 combo. 

Edited by XJ-001 - Dec/03/2007 at 3:10pm
1970 AMX 390 4spd

1970 Javelin 390 Auto (Project)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/03/2007 at 11:00pm
Yes.
The advantages in town, and highway with the high differential.
Looks like it's decided.
You've run the data, good move - that's the deciding factor there - the numbers are real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 12Gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2007 at 12:07am
Hi Guys:
Thanks for the quick feedback... I am going for it....
 
Now, I simply have to brave the cold garage floor and pull the trannie.
Not my most favorite AMX task, probably because it is awkward.
I did get a low profile trannie jack on Craigs List recently so that will be
a huge help.
 
I will let you all know how this works out.
 
Cheers Amigos!
Art In Connecticut

Nothing Lasts Forever... If you give it enough TIME

1968 AMX 390 4-Speed

1991 ERA Cobra Replica - 428 & Toploader

2016 Tesla P90D with Ludicrous Mode

2011 Volvo XC60
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/04/2007 at 12:52am
Try 30 degrees and pulling 2 driveshafts, a t-case and T5 from a car with enough grease and oil on the bottomside to keep Whitecastle going for a year. (and no tranny jack)
If you were closer, I'd work out a deal - I'd help you pull your tranny and put it back when done if you helped me put this one back in.
The AMX has more room inside and out (IMO), which helps.
OTOH, when I get these axles 20" off the ground, the Eagle body is that much higher!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stu in wichita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2007 at 6:55am
Wow, this change sounds like it might be the best of both worlds!
 
I'm running a 2.23 low gear with 3.15's.  In slow cruising, parades, etc.  I have to ride the clutch because the car goes too fast in low gear.  This gear swap would fix that, plus give me more off the line without hurting my highway mileage (17-18 mpg with a 390).
 
Can anyone shed light on what is required to switch out first gear to 2.64?  I'm having my tranny gone through too, and my transmission guy is telling me how hard it is to find parts for these transmissions.  I don't know if he's setting me up for huge bill, or maybe he doesn't want to do the project, or what.  
 
1.  Is it just the "first gear that has to be swapped out, or does the mating gear need to be changed also?  I see lots of T10 parts for sale, but not sure of the interchangeability of the gears themselves, tooth counts, etc. on AMC's.
 
2.  Will there be a huge "canyon" between 1st and 2nd after this swap?  I know the rpm drop will be more than before, but is will it be ridiculously wide?
 
3.  Would I be better off just looking for a "wide ratio" transmission instead of changing mine out? 
 
Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
-Stu
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 12Gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2007 at 8:58am
Stu:
I do believe the entire gear set gets changed... and yes it is the best of both worlds...
 
The current gears you have are...
 
1st   2nd  3rd   4th    Rev
 
2.23 1.77 1.35 1.00   2.16
 
The gear change would result in the following...
 
2.64 2.10 1.46 1.00  2.55
 
This would make for much easier driving from stop and keep the
engine in the peak torque band as well from my calculations.
 
The Higher trannie gear set seems to be a real nice compromise.
 
And since my current original trannie is near FUBAR it makes sense
for me to do this gear swap. 
 
I should have this finished just before Christmas and will report back
with the results and my driving impressions.
 
Fingers are crossed.
 
 
Art In Connecticut

Nothing Lasts Forever... If you give it enough TIME

1968 AMX 390 4-Speed

1991 ERA Cobra Replica - 428 & Toploader

2016 Tesla P90D with Ludicrous Mode

2011 Volvo XC60
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ehmc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2007 at 6:58pm
All this (2.64 ratio) stuff has been hashed over before :
I believe the hardest thing to find is an AMC 2.64 input shaft - rare !
12 Gauge if your guy has all the 2.64 ratio parts you are very lucky.
Stu before you get to excited - you have to replace a whole bunch of gears. And they are not easy to find. Better look for a whole tranny. 


Edited by ehmc - Dec/05/2007 at 7:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 12Gauge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/05/2007 at 9:48pm

EHMC:

Yup he does have everything I need.  When I go there next I will check all the details and find out if he has other parts to do additional conversions or complete trannies set to go.  Mine could be done by next week this time.

Art In Connecticut

Nothing Lasts Forever... If you give it enough TIME

1968 AMX 390 4-Speed

1991 ERA Cobra Replica - 428 & Toploader

2016 Tesla P90D with Ludicrous Mode

2011 Volvo XC60
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