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Borg Warner T-35 (probably shot) |
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postdoc
AMC Fan Joined: Nov/27/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Posted: Dec/20/2012 at 11:51pm |
New here. First post and it's a doozie.
I have a 3 speed auto T-35 in a 71 DJ-5 (AM General postal jeep). Unfortunately, reverse is the only thing I've got going right now. I'm assuming there is damage/wear in the tranny that's preventing it form engaging in drive, but is it possible that I'm looking at anything that won't require a full swap or rebuild? Fluid is good, although since it stopped engaging, there has been a leak between the bell housing and flex plate(?) - the question mark is because I know little about transmissions beyond the theory of how they work. If I wanted to swap in another T-35, are they all identical, or did they alter bolt pattern by year and model? Do they all have the same tail length (important, since a DJ has an 81" wheel base). I can't imagine there are too many tranny shops that are well versed in a 45 year old model, but even if there are, will machined parts be available if it's a munched clutch pack, broken pump or similar? I guess the real question is, how bad of shape am I likely in? |
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ramblinrev
Moderator Group Joined: Dec/28/2008 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 11539 |
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I would hope that's a water-cooled BW aluminum in a postal jeep (basic trans fits under that T35 label, but yours has a more specific model #, like M42 or something.)
Parts can basically be found. An old-time rebuilder would be ideal. Maybe Farna or BillD can weigh in with some suggestions. |
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74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384 70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981) |
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Freecat1
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jun/19/2008 Location: Atlanta. Status: Offline Points: 2342 |
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Try these guys, might be some help>>>>>> http://www.postaljeep.net/contact.htm
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postdoc
AMC Fan Joined: Nov/27/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Air cooled. I guess the engine block on my year's 232 is too narrow to just marry up neatly with a torqueflight, BW M-11 (the next tranny in the DJ-5 line), or a GM TH350. That may be the same for other T-35's,in which case the M-42 label would make sense.
Thanks for the link. I'm familiar with them but have gotten mixed reviews. Their solution is a full conversion kit from later (76-78) scrapped DJ-5s. They would ship a 232 I6 paired with a torqueflight A727 ($1750 plus freight from Alabama to AZ). I like the idea, since I've heard that trans is one of the best out there. However, If I went that route (both engine and trans swap), for the money they want, I could pick up a DJ (or two) here locally so I could road test the set up before I did the work. At least then, I'd have all sorts of compatible body and mechanical spares too. Ideally, I'd love to keep this rig close to orig - mechanically, it's nearly bone stock, clean, straight, and fun as all to drive. That's why I'm hoping to be able to rebuild or find an exact match. Edited by postdoc - Dec/21/2012 at 9:40am |
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KermitDRambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/06/2007 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 2579 |
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You may want to reach out to Dan Curtis (amx39068). He's also in Phoenix and probably knows who to take it to for tranny work. I'd just leave it sit and not try to drive it. Hard parts (like drums) are getting hard to find for the Borg Warner trannies. Gaskets, bands, and friction plates are no problem to get. The torque converter will need to be rebuilt since they are not available new.
Matt
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postdoc
AMC Fan Joined: Nov/27/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Thanks, Matt. I'll give Dan a ping. I think I have a line on hard parts from a guy in Texas who was a postal depot mechanic and now sells DJ parts. He said he has some T-35s from my year that he has been parting out. He wouldn't bite on my offer to fly him out for a weekend in PHX in exchange for labor though. I figured that would be cheaper than a rebuild. Bummer.
Edited by postdoc - Dec/21/2012 at 10:19am |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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More than likely it isn't just shot. The first thing I'd do is disconnect the shifter linkage and get under the Jeep and put the trans in L (lever on trans all the way to the rear). Jack up the rear axle and put it on jack stands, and block the front wheels. You will have to bypass the neutral safety switch (pull the wires and connect together, IIRC). Then start the engine and see if the wheels turn. If so bump the lever forward one to the next detent. That should be D1, and the trans should shift. If it does the linkage is the problem, not the trans.
If that test fails, drop the pan. Look at the tubes first. Make sure they are all in the right place. You may need a TSM to locate them and determine where they should be, but if they are loose it should be obvious. Check the servos. There is a link between the front servo and the end of the band, make sure that's in place and the servos engage the bands. You may want to check the band adjustment. If all that looks good, you need to pull the valve body. It should be disassembled and thoroughly cleaned. Most of the time a problem like this is simply due to a sticking valve or clogged passage in the valve body. Yours should be an M-4x, not a M-35. The 35 has a TV cable, the 4x has a vacuum modulator and an electric kick-down. Make sure you have a good vacuum line on the modulator. You may want to try a new modulator, but I'd clean the valve body first. If it has a cable from the trans to throttle linkage make sure the cable moves easily and is connected. If the cable wasn't connected you probably do have a fried trans. A bad vacuum modulator could do the same. |
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Frank Swygert
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postdoc
AMC Fan Joined: Nov/27/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Thanks so much for sharing you're expertise. The Jeepers were stumped since the trans is automatic, so I think I've found my forum! What you suggest sounds like a plan. This will be my first stab at "real" mechanics, but I'm willing to give it a shot. I see where the shifter disconnect is and am sure I can drop the pan, so what could go wrong? LOL. I also just re-installed a missing NSS, so I know how to bypass that as well. I have 2 original TSMs - one for a DJ-5B and one for a 5C since I'm no sure which matches with what's in it now. I don't know if this means much, but I have 2 engine casting numbers for the 232 I6 (319160 on the top (manifold) and 3213867 on the case. That made me suspect it may be a mashup. My transmission ID tag reads 12803 and the bell housing casting # is 3785760. Based on what you're saying (farna) I think the tranny is either an M-37 or M-43 (it's definitely aluminum). I'm just not sure which one. Thanks again.
If I get in over my head, Dan Curtis said he knows a guy here in PHX he thinks can help me rebuild. (Thanks, Matt) |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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3213867is a 72-74 199/232 block casting number. I don't have manifold casting numbers. You can get the head casting number after removing the valve cover.
There is a number on the trans tag that will have "AS2-40" or something like that -- the last two numbers are the trans model number (in the example a M-40, the AS2 really doesn't matter, can be different). That number is screen printed in the lower left of the hex shaped tag. All of those trannys are basically the same, the only external differences are the M-35 has the TV cable, the later models use a vacuum modulator and an electric kick-down solenoid. They also have provisions for a trans fluid cooler or air cooling, depends on the bell housing and torque converter used. The power holding differences include things like a different number of clutches and steels, and sometimes different hardness shafts, but the rebuild sequence is the same on all. |
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Frank Swygert
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postdoc
AMC Fan Joined: Nov/27/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Unfortunately, all that's visible on the transmission tag is the stamped number (12803), but since it is hexagonal and the case is aluminum, I should be safe to assume it is either a BW M-42 or 43. Interestingly, the case is stamped with USPS near the tag (just above the pan gasket). I thought that was a pretty cool find.
So I must have been wrong about it being air cooled (chalk that up to not knowing what I'm looking at and trying to take too much from wikipedia). There are two lines running from the radiator, and one from the engine, which I take to mean it is oil/water cooled. now that I have it narrowed down, if I can isolate the issue, I'm hoping it's not too hard to find parts. From what I understand, I don't think this skinny 232 is compatible with more common transmissions (like a TF 727/904 or GM TH350). Is that right? |
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