Anyone done EPAS?

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Funny you should say that about stalling the older cars because yes I have done that with a 73 Javelin that had PS and a 304.

Tom, there is no misconception on my part. I never made the statement it takes no power. That would be ludicrous. Then again I think providing actual physics data and formula to calculate for frictional, aero, gravitational and Newtonian drag is probably a bit much for most to digest. Simply put, there is no such thing as free power. There is however more efficient design and that is the target here. There is no belt, there is no aero resistance, there is no Newtonian drag from fluid trying to be driven against an impeller. EPAS is a more efficient design and would result in a negligible HP gain of 2-5HP and 5 is a really high estimate being very generous. What is proven is that identical cars with modern hydraulic systems that freewheel as you stated still benefit from 1-3 mpg better fuel economy. What I would like to see is a calculation of the aero drag coefficient for those cars taking into consideration all factors such as head wind and tail wind to see if that is a truly scientific result and not one that has potentially been twisted to skew EPA MPG data. The one thing that I can state beyond any shadow of doubt is that EPAS is more efficient even at rest as there is no belt drag or Newtonian drag. What the actual power gains/losses are could only be determined on identical test platforms with identical environmental conditions and that is not something that I am positioned to do. Nor does it make any sense to do so financially or based on effort vs. reward as I am not concerned in knowing anymore than it will be more efficient.

I enjoy healthy debates such as this but I think assumption may be the word you are looking for rather than misconception regarding hydro steering. I never made the statement that it was free power or zero power consumption (I said no power loss for driving a pump). I do acknowledge that I was not 100% clear and did not present all facts early on. Please don't take any of this wrong, I am not at all trying to discount the value or viability of hydraulic steering. I am not knocking anyone that loves and uses hydraulic steering. I just recently moved away from hydro assisted steering (which I really loved). I am merely stating that there will be reduction in parasitic loss by converting along with other potential benefits like no extra belts, no extra fluids etc.

This is something that I am going to do and the main reasons are less loss, less maintenance and better feedback although I am not sure on that last one as previously stated.

Have you done an EPAS system yet? 

Edited by shootist - Sep/02/2016 at 9:08am

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shootist Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: May/24/2012 Location: Triad, NC Status: Offline Points: 1023	Post Options Post Reply Quote shootist Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/01/2016 at 8:56pm
	Funny you should say that about stalling the older cars because yes I have done that with a 73 Javelin that had PS and a 304. Tom, there is no misconception on my part. I never made the statement it takes no power. That would be ludicrous. Then again I think providing actual physics data and formula to calculate for frictional, aero, gravitational and Newtonian drag is probably a bit much for most to digest. Simply put, there is no such thing as free power. There is however more efficient design and that is the target here. There is no belt, there is no aero resistance, there is no Newtonian drag from fluid trying to be driven against an impeller. EPAS is a more efficient design and would result in a negligible HP gain of 2-5HP and 5 is a really high estimate being very generous. What is proven is that identical cars with modern hydraulic systems that freewheel as you stated still benefit from 1-3 mpg better fuel economy. What I would like to see is a calculation of the aero drag coefficient for those cars taking into consideration all factors such as head wind and tail wind to see if that is a truly scientific result and not one that has potentially been twisted to skew EPA MPG data. The one thing that I can state beyond any shadow of doubt is that EPAS is more efficient even at rest as there is no belt drag or Newtonian drag. What the actual power gains/losses are could only be determined on identical test platforms with identical environmental conditions and that is not something that I am positioned to do. Nor does it make any sense to do so financially or based on effort vs. reward as I am not concerned in knowing anymore than it will be more efficient. I enjoy healthy debates such as this but I think assumption may be the word you are looking for rather than misconception regarding hydro steering. I never made the statement that it was free power or zero power consumption (I said no power loss for driving a pump). I do acknowledge that I was not 100% clear and did not present all facts early on. Please don't take any of this wrong, I am not at all trying to discount the value or viability of hydraulic steering. I am not knocking anyone that loves and uses hydraulic steering. I just recently moved away from hydro assisted steering (which I really loved). I am merely stating that there will be reduction in parasitic loss by converting along with other potential benefits like no extra belts, no extra fluids etc. This is something that I am going to do and the main reasons are less loss, less maintenance and better feedback although I am not sure on that last one as previously stated. Have you done an EPAS system yet? Edited by shootist - Sep/02/2016 at 9:08am


tyrodtom Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/14/2007 Location: Virginia Status: Online Points: 6213	Post Options Post Reply Quote tyrodtom Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/01/2016 at 9:38pm
	You're misunderstanding what i'm saying. Any hydraulic pump, when it's not pumping pressure saps very little HP. It's not under load. Put a gauge on a power steering line and the pressure will be low when the steering wheel is straight, turn the steering the pressure goes up, and then the pump is under load, and taking more hp. I'll have to find a old Circle Track magazine. It had a article on HP used by power steering pumps. They tested a car on a chassis dyno. They tested for HP without PS, then HP with PS installed and with the steering wheel straight, and HP with the wheel hard over. I can't remember the exact figures, i'll have to find the article for exact figures. But the HP difference between non PS and PS as far as belts drag, fluid drag, etc. , was barely enough for the dyno to detect, like 3-5 HP. However when the wheel was turned, it could go even higher than 10 HP or more above the original hp lost to the installation, depending on how hard you had the wheel turned. Their opinion that since in a circle track car, the only time you're using the steering is when you're entering a turn and on the brakes, or exiting a turn and not fully on the gas, the loss of HP wasn't much of a factor because in both situations you didn't need full HP. On my own circle track car I removed the power steering not for the HP gain, but to get rid of almost 30 lbs. of front end weight, and to improve road feel. But in a long race the car is tiring to drive, and it limits who I can let drive the car. I have raced against a Cobalt that had the electric power steering, they had trouble with it overheating and reverting to manual, not too much fun in the middle of a turn. ( Or that's what they blamed on when they hit me in a turn ) But those guys had a lot of electronic gremlins in that Cobalt. I've drove a few new cars with electric PS, but didn't know it until I looked under the hood.
	66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.

farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/02/2016 at 6:29am
	The biggest advantage of EPAS is weight and bulk. It's also easier/quicker to install on a production line. That last one is the biggest incentive for new car manufacturers. Just bolt in the steering column and plug up the wire! For hot rodders bulk and being able to hide it under the dash is, I suspect, the biggest enticement, cleaning up the engine install and looks of the engine bay. No messy hoses and such either. Just put on a bigger alternator and make sure your wiring to the EPAS unit is up to snuff (and wiring for alternator). One nit to pick. Watts = volts x amps. 360W = 12V x 30A -- not 13A. Still, that's not excessive, doesn't require any more than an OEM type electric cooling fan. #6 wire will carry 30A for 25 feet. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html Edited by farna - Sep/02/2016 at 6:34am
	Frank Swygert

shootist Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: May/24/2012 Location: Triad, NC Status: Offline Points: 1023	Post Options Post Reply Quote shootist Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/02/2016 at 8:50am
	Love you guys. Where else could someone go and have every comment analyzed to the inth degree. 13amps was the nominal load not the peak load. I would not calculate losses using peak load from a hydraulic system or electric in either situation. Now if you guys would just acknowledge that my ideas are superior I believe we can move on with the details of how to do the conversion. I am really just playing around with you guys. I completely understand where you both are coming from and my largest reason for exploring EPAS is more of a cost concern above all other items. I looked at the hydraulic rack and PS pump that would work with my supercharger and really didn't want to spend over $2000 which is what it will cost. I think that the weight difference would be insignificant to make that sway me one way or the other. I have a 125amp alternator so my electrical system can easily handle the EPAS draw. I do like the fact that it can be hidden under the dash too. I also like the no hoses or fluid route. I really think that all of the advantages are very slight for EPAS with the exception of the cost and if I can get performance out of it as an added benefit why would I not got that direction? EPAS using the Saturn Koyo $100-$300 total spend (DIY fabrication required) HPAS using flaming river rack, pump, hoses, belt, fluid, etc. $2000-2500 total spend (bolt on basically) Hey Tom, with the information regarding the cobalt with EPAS I can see where that would definitely be very problematic. Transitioning from manual to power steer would feel awkward and could trhow you off. I guess you could put an override switch in the system where the EPAS would stay off. At least that way you could just use manual steering and not be thrown off by the transition. Good point, I think I may add an override switch to mine. Edited by shootist - Sep/02/2016 at 9:04am


farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/02/2016 at 5:58pm
	Sounds to me like the EPAS is the way to go. I love the idea myself. The only drawback is you lose the original steering column. I suppose you could adapt it to the Javelin column, but that would take some work. Since your car isn't a restoration anyway, nothing to worry about as long as it looks good and functions well. I DID SAY I was nit-picking about the power... but I'd hate for you to burn something up due to too small a wire also...
	Frank Swygert

shootist Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: May/24/2012 Location: Triad, NC Status: Offline Points: 1023	Post Options Post Reply Quote shootist Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/04/2016 at 8:22am
	I already murder-ized the column when I went with the control freak IFS because I had to cut off the rag joint and add the double D u joint. I am still trying to determine if I need/want to put the unit in the engine compartment or under the dash. I did find out something I though was kind of cool. It appears the adapter kit which allows you to use the Saturn EPAS unit, adds a potentiometer which allows you to control the level of assistance. That is kind of cool because you can then fine tune the feedback you are getting. I will be careful with the wire selection and make sure everything is properly fused so we can eliminate the burning something up concern.


farna Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676	Post Options Post Reply Quote farna Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/04/2016 at 9:59am
	Where is is mounted in the Saturn? If it's mounted under the dash it may not be weather sealed. Doesn't look like it is. I did some searching and every one I found was mounted under the dash. This one in a 65 Mustang fastback is a good example -- well written and lots of photos! http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/electric-power-steering-upgrade.883393/ Other possible donors: numerous GM models including 2004 and up Chevrolet Malibu, Chevrolet Cobalt , Equinox, HHR, Pontiac G6 (except the Convertible, GTP and 2007 GT models), Pontiac G5, Torrent and Vibe, Saturn ION and VUE, 2005 and up Ford Mustang (taken from http://www.aa1car.com/library/steering_power_electric.htm)
	Frank Swygert

shootist Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Addicted Joined: May/24/2012 Location: Triad, NC Status: Offline Points: 1023	Post Options Post Reply Quote shootist Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Sep/04/2016 at 12:28pm
	Hey thanks for the info Frank. I had not considered the weather seal. The Saturn vue is an under-dash unit and I am not against mounting it under dash. I would have to modify the column of course but I am not against hacking it up further to get it done since the car is no longer stock by any stretch of the imagination. This all lends itself to the pro-touring setup that I am going for. I skimmed through that stangnet thread previously and it was one of the catalysts behind my decision to go EPAS. I appreciate all the feedback from you guys.


DrRambler69 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List AMC Apprentice Joined: Mar/06/2016 Location: Anchorage Status: Offline Points: 142	Post Options Post Reply Quote DrRambler69 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Feb/14/2017 at 8:01am
	You have plenty of room to mount this under your dash. Mounting it in the engine compartment may not be the best idea due to clearance. Also, most guys use the Saturn VUE EPAS because the EBAY harness that is sold. Truthfully, the 2009 Toyota Prius (the one I pulled) has the best system to pull from a yard, because you can pull the EPAS computer along with it and you only need power/ground/ignition wires to get it working. That being said, there is a also not a security lock in the Toyota, so you don't have to worry about it locking up on you. Just make sure you get the Toyota yokes and mate them to yours.