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AMX drum brake question

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cadiac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadiac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AMX drum brake question
    Posted: Jul/26/2014 at 4:45pm
I'm just a little new with AMC's outside of 65 "Rambador's", I have 2. I recently I finally bought a 69 AMX. It needs tlc with some things and today I yanked the 4 drums off of it. Someone did a brake job before it was parked. The rear drums aren't to old/10"ers, fronts are 9" and way to THIN. Look dangerous so I'm looking for a pair and may have found some. Listings show the front drums to be 10", these are 9"x 2 1/2". I find the 9" drum listed in places but not under AMX?? I have a 72 Ambo, Will the disc brakes swap over ??? I think thats a dumb question as per the size of the cars but the suspensions seem the same? A good source for a front disc swap? Thanks in advance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2014 at 7:01pm
Drum brake AMX's of curse existed.  I can not with out looking things up tell exactly what should be on it but then again that is what TSM's are for and my recommendation to you would be to make that your next purchase so that you have some form of reference material to tell you what should be on it vs what you found.
The car is OLD, no surprise and it is possible some where in the past a set of different drum brakes did indeed get bolted on to the thing because the were available and probably CHEAP and they made it stop.
Usually the 6 cylinder cars had smaller brakes than the V8's did but if you unbolted things far enough it was a complete swap over to change them.
As to what belongs on the car I will look in my 1970 manual to see what they had.
But
as to your AMBO disc brakes?
Yup they will fit , so will Hornet,  Concord, Javelin, Matador and Spirit.  And it is the Spirit ones I have sitting on my shelf to put on my 1970 Javelin if I get backed into a corner but for the most part at the moment I do not have to.
The rule of thumb that has been pretty much the test of time behind it, is to unbolt everything on the front of your car back to the steering knuckle, the last thing to be removed is the spindle.  And do the same to the AMBO and carry them over to the AMX and Bolt them in just as they came off of the AMBO
With one possible exception.  Again something I would have to look up.
The caliper may not fit correctly due to interferrance with the trunnion suspension and IF that happens and the operative word is IF, the caliper if I am not mistaken is on the rear side (the side point towards the back of the car) of the steering knuckle.  And the bleeder screw is located toward the top of the Caliper.
What is done if they interferre is to move the caliper to the front side of the Steering knuckle, but if you do that the bleeder screw is not at the top but at the bottom.  To solve that, take the right front caliper from the rear mounting position and mount the caliper on the left front steering knuckle to face the front of the car, Mounting it this way will have the bleeder screw again at the top, which is where it wants to be when bleeding the brakes.
This is quite doable but will require you of course to take the mounting brackets for the right front and mount them on the left front correctly.
This has been done multiple times in the past and it works. 
Be advised though that those brakes are also getting hard to buy parts for, so take that into consideration.
There are now aftermarket brake conversions available for the car with different costs and of course quality. They are your choice.
My choice is to find 1980 or so Spirit or Concord disc brakes and to the same thing, but they too are getting hard to find parts for too.
However my Hornet (both of them) have brakes similar to your AMBO and I am not changing them as does my Javelin still have the OEM brakes supplied in 1970 and I am not changing them either.
To help hook up the rubber brake line to your now relocated disc brakes if needed a brake hose from a middle 70's Ford Bronco I believe is long enough to fit and you may need "Banjo" brake line fittings to deal with tight clearances.
All these parts are available at auto parts houses.
Now you have a whole bunch of choices to make.
My 1970 TSM says the 6 cylinder front brakes were dual servo 9 inch drum
The V8 front brakes were 10 inch dual Servo Drums.
The point.
It stopped when you bought it.
So start with it stops.
Repairing what is on it will stop the car.
You can spend $1000.00's of dollars changing things,  and the car will still stop.
The ball is in your court.
At freeway speeds the rules are the same.  At 70 mph you need to stop the car.  How it gets stopped really makes no difference but the amount of money spent doing it is a big difference.
It is advisable to deal with a replacement master cylinder when moving over to disc brakes, but and it is a big but, it has been done with out doing a master cylinder change as has an adjustable proportioning valve been used or not.
My recommendation?  I don't have one, I'd find out what it needs as I go along down the line and deal with it when I get to it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadiac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2014 at 9:15pm
Thanks for the info, I learned some things today. Didn't know a 6 came in an AMX. According to the VIN, this car was a 290-4 speed car. Was drag raced with what I don't know. Bottom of rear wheel wells are rolled in for clearance and it has a roll bar with the forward braces removed. No Rot on the car- yeh! Has a chev 350-T350. gonna build the Ambo 360 and put it in with 727 also from ambo. Possibly find stuff to make it 4 speed again?? I found a new pair of drums for $120 shipped, so the disc brake thing will be on the back burner. Good to know the Ambo parts will work! I'll not discard that stuff. Someone is selling a disc brake plate for these cars that you have to get Toyota? rotors and Cadillac Fleetwood calipers for. I had a 66 Dodge A100 with adapter plate using mustang rotors with calipers that seemed to be from GM G body-F body? Worked well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ramblinrev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2014 at 9:21pm
Sounds like you've got something odd going on. AMX's did not come with sixes and did not come with 9" drum brakes. Someone had to have done a swap over time, probably because they didn't have the correct from drums for the 10", and had some 9 inchers lying around. DO NOT rebuild the 9" brakes...they won't stop the car adequately. Get the proper 10" or discs on there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/26/2014 at 10:56pm
Two things, the AMX never had a 6 cylinder engine.  The brakes are on there because it was a cheap way to fix a brake job on a car that had turned into beater status some where along the line.  And they bolted on just like your ambo brakes will.  So don't over think things.
Secondly, the 9 inch brakes stopped a 6 cylinder Javelin just fine or a 6 cylinder Ambassador just fine both which are heavier than an AMX.  And at any given speed it is not how big the motor is, it is how heavy the car is that determines any difference if any when it comes to stopping, so over thinking things because it is an AMX does not particularly work.
When it came to drag racing in that era and maybe even today, drum brakes were a preferred package.  The theory being that you could adjust drum brakes so they did not drag against the drum thus (in tongue and cheek theory) enable the car to go measurably faster than the the next guy because the friction of the brakes dragging against the drums was removed.  Disk brakes always slightly drag against the rotor as there are no springs to retract the calipers away from the rotor as there are springs to drag the brake shoes off of the drum.  It was some ones secrete to incredibly fast speed.
And then all it had to do was get stopped before it ran out of room at the end of the track.
But it still remains, adjust correctly with good brake shoes, it whoaed up a heavy 6 cylinder Ambassador at speed.  When it had to.
Yes the disc brakes have advantages,  but the question really is, to what extent.
And I have worked on Frankenbrake conversions that were supposed to be the hot ticket.   No thanks.  I would not spend my money on them.
If I had no choice?  Personally I stay with the drums, at least I'd know the dang things work.
But as long as I had a set of AMC disc brakes available I would use them, preferably Concord or Spirit from about 1979 up through early 80's.

Being as it sounds as if you can select an engine and transmission package from scratch the options are actually wide open.
One of which simply is score a 700R4 and bolt it up to the GM engine.
Or
Any AMC engine would go nice with a 5 speed.  I would not pull the 5 speed out of my 390 Donohue for all the tea in china.
Or
A lock up torqueconverter 998 can be built to handle the hp from a 360 up to how big and do a good job for a street package as can the same thing with a 727.
And a 998 or a 904 fits easier.

You are at a good point.  You own it, now you can do what you want.





Edited by uncljohn - Jul/26/2014 at 11:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FuzzFace2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/27/2014 at 9:49am
As said the Ambo setup from the 4 bolts out will swap. Only thing might be steering stops between the 2 but is not a big deal to deal with. If you do use the Ambo setup and the AMX has power brakes just swap the master over. If not you might be able to swap the whole power assy. Over to the AMX, that is if you want power breaks.

As for aftermarket front disc you can go from mild to wild. Scarebird https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=95
Is a bracket kit and you buy the other makes parts to finish off the brakes – mild.
Then you have Wilwood & the other that starts with A***** forget the name now – wild.
There are disc kits for the rear also if you want to go that way too.

I am not 100% sure you but may be able to take the Ambo front cross member and use it in the AMX and not have to deal with whatever was mickey mouse to fit any motor in the car other than a AMC v8 motor as the AMC 6 uses a different cross member for all cars.

If you want to go with a stick trany there are different ways to do this. A lot depends on the parts you have now and what you will need and if you think it is worth going thru all the work to find parts & do the swap. Because it sounds like you are not keeping it stock you might look into a 5 or 6 sp that has overdrive, search for T5 for this swap on here.

BTW I have done 2 disc swaps on my 70 Javelins using 76 Gremlin parts (drag car) and 83 Concord spindle/caliper parts on the street car as it had 4 piston disc.
I also did the T5 swap from a T10 on the street car too.
Good luck on your project
Dave ----
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/27/2014 at 10:56am
The Ambo crossmember won't work. I know all the small cars (American/Hornet/Gremlin/etc.) used the same CM, not sure if the Javelin/AMX had its own or shared with Rebel/Matador, but the long wheelbase 65+ Ambo had a different CM. The torque tube or driveshaft is the same length as the shorter wheelbase Classic/Rebel/Matador. The motor mount position on the CM is further back on the Ambo.

There are usually just plates bolted or welded to the AMC CM perches to adapt the "foreign" engine. Sometimes just the mount holes are enlarged or new ones drilled. You'll have to look and see what's been done once the Chevy 350 is out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/28/2014 at 8:49am
A Rebel cross member should fit fine. Ambo has the wheel stretch and will bolt to the car but put the engine into the firewall. if your cross member is seriously hacked you can use the Ambo's and reposition the mount brackets, but that would be a bit of work to sort out.

Since you are already into redoing the front drums, look into drilling them.
tomj did his. I forget his new url? anyone?

With the drums drilled when you get into water or even as they wear and build dust the centrifugal force throws the water out fast. Tom was very happy with his. There's a company in Ca. that will do it for you.

As a side note, tomj just did a weight comparison and the drilled 9X2 1/2" drum setup weighs 10lbs less per side than the scarebird discs and that is unsprung weight. stock, I'd be real careful, The 9 x 2"s on the Americans I have had over the years faded big time, real fast with spirited driving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/28/2014 at 9:13am
Dredging information from memory it seems to me that the "Up to" 69 Javelin and AMX had a lot in common with the Rambler American underpinning so being narrow, the front cross member would be common to the the Rambler American rather than one from any Ambassador or Rebel.  Of which they share commonality.
As to the performance of drum brakes?  The real question is do they work and the answer is a significant yes.  They worked for years and years and years and still can be seen on large trucks.
But can they be improved on?  That too is an obvious yes and basic disc brakes are better in some aspects.   The question than becomes how much better and is it actually useful to make them better?
That depends on the user.  Making things better is part of an automotive hobby and drilling the drums to get rid of the water quickly is one thing that can be done.  I have lost brakes driving through flooded area's, you learn to ride the brakes coming out the other side and in about 50 feet they are back.  But, how many times have I had to do that?  Can't be many or I could remember them.
They will stop the car.  That has been proven, how well and how often when driven at extreme speeds?  That is open for question and a function of how the car is driven.  At some point disc brakes won't stop it either.

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76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/28/2014 at 9:56am
John,

The Javelin and AMX 68-69 are b@$t3rd children.
They use the wide crossmember with the narrow/small body trunions.

Why? I have no idea?
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