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AMC V8 'Police' oil pan variant

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jpnjim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpnjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/07/2019 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by Sonic Silver Sonic Silver wrote:

About 25 years ago, I had a 70 AMX, a nice 70 GS 455 Buick, and a Hornet SC/360 needing a lot of restoration. I decided that one needed to go. The AMX was going nowhere since I bought it new, so I decided to cut the Buick loose and restore the SC/360. I still have those 2 cars, but sometimes I miss the Buick. It was fast and comfortable, and had A/C. The 2 AMC cars aren't in the same league as far as comfort goes, and I'm 25 years older now.


There are so many great stories from "way back when", that we really need an "I Remember When" forum here just for old car stories. Smile

71 Javelin AMX P-code Go pac 360/4spd/3.91's
was Green/green now T/A red w/blk leather

88,89&98 Jeeps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve_P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/08/2019 at 7:42am
The police oil pan was the only special oil pan for the factory built AMC V8 cars. Besides the police engines, which only had a few unique parts, they all had the same oil pan. An engine was the same whether it was for an AMX or station wagon- same camshaft, same pistons, same oil pan. The Machine engine was an exception with the unique intake and exhaust manifolds but it had the same oil pan.
The SS AMX also had a standard pan as delivered. It doesn't make sense, but maybe this is because there wasn't a deep AMC pan commercially available in 1969? Yes, Aviaid was around and could've made up a batch, but those are made to order and not a speed shop item like the Milodon pan. Anyone know when it was introduced?
And why did they remove the sump cover plate on the police pan? This makes no sense to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nda racer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/08/2019 at 1:01pm
Yep, the quote I posted about was from the SS/AMX History page. So yep, Stock pan on the SS. Dunno where all this other stuff is coming from. and the photo is from the same page. That mod they suggest for the SS/AMX.
I agree on the Police ban, shoulda did the baffle too. But in reality, what do Police cars do the most. Idle. Idle all day long. The 175 MPH Police Pursuit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! stories are great for people who don't leave the house, and 12 y/o kids, but reality is, that was very rare and highly exaggerated.
 
I "read" the Mopar engineers put a window in a 340 pan, cranked er up and watched what happened. It was pulling the oil out of the sump and wrapping it around the crank like a snake. So not only robbing HP, but sucking the sump dry... So they went with a windage tray. Even the Mopar Performance!!!!!! replacement pans don't have a baffle in em.....
 
IMO for what most of doing, the stock oil pan is more than enough, esp with 6 qts in it. Running 9s at 200 passes a year, I'd look into something else. But a couple of test and tunes a year and mostly doing trips to the ol' DQ for a cruise, that pan is above and beyond what you need.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Anti Chrysler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/08/2019 at 10:59pm
The stock pan is more than adequate for hauling lawn chairs to the car show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/20/2019 at 8:09pm
Finally got around to making a shop drawing, alluded to in my previous post here on this topic.

IMO, I would prefer to label the 'Police' oil pan a 'Jeep' oil pan instead because it looks like it was made to cup oil around the pickup tube suction housing in uneven terrain, in a low rpm situation because of the arguably small oil return hole in the 'cup' would plausibly not allow high volume flow to the pickup tube (but blocking it off on three sides instead)

IMO, this design would only aggravate what hydraulic system designers caution against. They specify oil suction tube depth to oil level measurements in order to prevent oil-air entrainment caused by vortex formation around the suction tube itself.

This otherwise well known phenomena of vortex formation around the oil suction tube is indeed moderated by raising the oil level in the oil sump reservoir.

In a high volume system, vortex formation around the suction tube is known to cause oil-air entrainment.

Please feel free to do your own research on the Internet; there is a fair amount of discussion on this topic concerning Industrial type systems. -Specified suction tube to depth requirements etc.

Unfortunately I don't have an AMC car right now with drop out center section crossmember to test this oil pan design but I do plan to test the concept on my current Rambler V8 engines (but they have a different situation because the high pressure bypass return pipe creates circular oil flow around the pickup housing instead)

So I can't say I have tested this design but I feel sure it has merit, if only for it's anti-slosh potential.

The 'X' pattern plates could be attached to the underside of a stock AMV8 oil pan baffle plate, and that assembly could be made to 'bolt in' to the stock pan (as a complete assembly) for ease of cleaning the pan? (weld tabs onto the sides of the pan to bolt in the re-modified assembly?)

As tested on industrial static hydraulic systems, the anti-vortex pickup tube assembly should work on it's own with no 'X' bracing work done to the stock oil pan because the 'two tier' horizontal plates are proved to disrupt downward vortex/spiral flow to the suction tube entrance.  (the vertical '+' plates will still serve to provide some anti-slosh effect -but it's the 'two tier' horizontal plates that are proved to disrupt vortex flow)

With no anti-vortex control plates on the suction tube assembly, it does appear that the stock oil bleed hole on top of the suction housing assembly may contribute to pull air bubbles into the oil if a vortex reaches low enough in a high flow/volume situation (plausibly in the higher rpm ranges)
-the 'bleed hole' could be brazed shut (you judge/you decide)





Thanks AMC Forum for giving us a space to discuss our favorite vehicles.
 

Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/20/2019 at 8:28pm
AMCenthusiast, I have an idea that makes it a wee simpler. Why not scallop the hole around the parimeter. 3/4" radius half circle or so. Or maybe a star pattern with triangle cuts around the perimeter.

The scallops should eliminate vortex as to allow a more even dump, by distributing flow to a wider dispersed pattern.

On top of that make a removable cut out section for adding trap door walls and modifications to allow some drain back vents, like they do for race baffles.

Since stock pans have a baffle built in, some mods to the existing baffle may be a poor man's trick for better oil control for not so serious (race) environments.

Edited by 304-dude - Jan/20/2019 at 8:31pm
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/20/2019 at 8:53pm
Like the idea of KISS,
If the "X" was produced by a straight cut and the slot "extensions bent down", there would be a baffle that would slow movement out of the sump.
A straight cut may let too much oil flow out on deceleration which is the major cause of starvation.
A restricted "X" design would solve the major problems, oil momentum starvation, oil flow to sump restriction at sides and oil aeration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/20/2019 at 11:14pm
Thanks for your considerate feedback.

I agree with you; partly why I like this idea is because it's a re-simplification; no moving parts & fairly easy to fabricate.

Along with 'suction pipe vortex formation', some of the key study words are 'oil-air entrainment'.
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/21/2019 at 12:47am
Note: I'm assuming in the second drawing that we keep the stock 'windage tray' and the 'X' pattern plates are merely added on underneath, inside the sump area. Sorry the second picture makes that point less clear/not really showing how the stock 'windage tray' is retained.
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2019 at 8:06am
So my son, research Engineer did a little work for me on a 3D cad program - that I have no clue how to operate, and would cost a motor just for the licence!
The X pattern does improve oil return to the sump, but is not optimal for preventing oil to head forward on hard deceleration.
A wind-age tray works well for oil aeration problems. That's a given.
Interestingly, a 3/4" tube on each side of the original pan, at #4 main, flush with the top and going down approximately 2" works very well for oil return to the sump and equally as well at not letting excessive amounts of oil flow front to back or side to side.
Modelling shows the tube at 1g force still being in oil. A simple hole did not prevent excessive oil coming out of the sump on side forces. A larger tube let too much oil move out and a smaller tube did not let enough move down from the side of the pan.
Mind you this is a computer model and not real world experience!   
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