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amc 20 twingrip tore down |
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jeanbonjeanbon1
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jan/26/2014 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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Posted: May/03/2018 at 7:45pm |
hi i started this new post since my other one was to id my rear end and this one to help me with diagnosis and solutions thanks all for your great help so far.
i tore down my amc 20 twin grip dif and found some surprising results checking it while i was dismantling.
The end play is over .030 and rocking both wheels one against the other one made me think the backlash was way out, but when i checked the pinion and carrier backlash only .009 was measured. do you think the excessive end play may cause the looseness whwen i rock the wheels one against the other one? This slack seems to come from inside the carrier. the pinion preload was next to nothing. hte gear pattern is fine and the gears look almost new to me and i didn't count the theets but it seems to be a 3.15 the car of course is my 69 amx 390 go pack i assume now I also broke the .097 pinion shim when i removed the pinion race. is it inclueded in the raetec rebuilt kit? do you think i can find some left threaded bolts for the carrier i gave them a hard time before i realised the where lefties dummie I'll first sand blast the unit monday and would like to order parts asap thanks again |
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Regards,Jean
BBBQ Big Bad Blue Quebec Amx 1969 F150 2013 crv 2016 roadstar 2003 |
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tufcj
Supporter of TheAMCForum Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/10/2007 Location: Watkins, CO Status: Offline Points: 4092 |
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Billd and I both warned you about breaking that shim. Originals are out there, but difficult to find. There are enough shims in the Ratech kit to build a stack that thick, but you'll have to use multiple shims. Bob tufcj |
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69 AMX
74 Javelin AMX 67 Rogue If you need a tool and don't buy it... you'll eventually pay for it... and not have it. Henry Ford |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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You likely used a punch to drive the pinion bearing race out of the housing, eh? ;-)
No that shim itself won't come in a kit and you must match that shim thickness exactly - using multiple shims. (if that many come in a kit, I can't recall - can't remember what brand kit I last used.)
Pinion depth is important - so much so that AMC had a Kent Moore tool for measuring that, and spells out in the TSM how to arrive at the proper shim needs based on the pinion marks if you have to replace a gear set. |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Axle end play has nothing to do with any other measurement or any rocking, etc.
It is only the end-to-end movement of the axles. Not the pinion, etc.
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Airdrie AMX
AMC Nut Joined: Aug/08/2010 Location: Alberta, Canada Status: Offline Points: 329 |
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The play from rocking the wheels back and forth is from the splines on the inner axle ends mating with the carrier side gears which is normal. Your measured backlash is also normal, as is little to no pinion preload with an original set of bearings in 40+ year old rear.No matter how good all the bearings look change them all out, try and find Timkens if you can. There is no problem stacking shims, one thin I've noticed is some kits have the wrong diameter shims as in a bit small, you might reach out to someone local for an original one piece?
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72 amx javelin 401 4spd
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jeanbonjeanbon1
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jan/26/2014 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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hi,
tufcj, as for your and billd 's advice for the shim i remember it clearly but my mom gave me lot of great advices that i didn't always followed but after my mistakes she forgave me and still loved me and tryed to help me as much as she could after Yes Bill, i used a punch but a brass one, trying to avoid the shim and shurely touched it once as for the results. The worst is, i had the info. Airdrie AMX, I'll try to get the .097 shim here and maybe stack the shim amount inclueded in the kit or maybe talk to a machinist friend of mine to get one done if he can, that doesn't bother me too much and if i can get it on one piece i'll practice four notches in the inside as i seen in the forum to help me for possible removal. The play from rocking wheels one against the other is what bothers me more as i never seen that much play for a rear end but to be true i never checked one of these. Is there a way to lower this play some how by changing (available parts inside the carrier)? Are timkens part of ratec kit? I'll try over here to see if i can get left threaded bolts to replace mine otherwise, does someone know where i could get 8 of them? To all of you tyufcj, billd, airdrie amx, thanks for your time. You really help me get this junk yard rust free Arizona 69 amx back on the road as it should have stayed. Lot of problems solved on this forum with comunity help since i started that restoration. ah yeah I might also check the donnor car i got for parts, It's 69 Javelin rusted out all the way but since it was a 290 v8 i wonder wath kind of rear end is under, i 'll check tomorrow and see the gears and possible twin grip in this one too. |
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Regards,Jean
BBBQ Big Bad Blue Quebec Amx 1969 F150 2013 crv 2016 roadstar 2003 |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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As General Zod said to the people of earth (in all languages, no less) "You are not alone".
Imagine - how do people know those will break and how do they know how they get broken.... LOL Anyway, on the play - I'll call it "rotational play" since end play is shoving an axle in and pulling it out and seeing what distance you get between the push and pull. A prior answer was correct, but maybe not complete - there's play in the spines, but that should really be precious little - hardly noticable..... ah, but add to that the play in the gears inside the carrier - some call them spider gears, often books call them differential gears because they are what give you the "differential action" allowing the wheels to spin at different speeds - there is play between them, the tooth of this gear to the tooth of the next gear and then yet another gear. Add all that together, and don't forget the play of the spiders on the shaft that goes through the carrier and holds those gears - all normal. I'd say most likely - don't worry about it. Add it all up - spines (shouldn't really be much but there is some) the differential gears as they interact, and the gears on the shaft through the carrier - it's called "stack-up of tolerances" if all each by itself it ok, maybe at the larger end of tolerance, but added together it's more than you may think. There are cars out there, not AMCs, but any brand, operating on a lot of that sort of play - no problems. Unless you've done a lot of 'em, you may wonder....... Think if this, too - what you are doing, spinning one wheel back and forth and feeling that play -it's not happening that way on the highway.
Normal operations will never "see" or feel that, only you, at one wheel, rear off the ground. Not sure the style, year, etc you are working on, but the twin grip in my 73 has quite a lot of give between the axles when it's in the air, the one in my 70 Javelin you can't possibly move on wheel without moving the other - it's not possible unless you reach break-away torque. |
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jeanbonjeanbon1
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jan/26/2014 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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i like your rotational play i'll keep that in my french trying his best with english language I'l check closely where the loose comes from and might leave it like it is if nothing seems crucial to me
Great day today talked to my machinist friend and he says he can help with my left bolts that i just have to buy longer right threaded bolts he'll cut them and left thread them to the lenght i need He also said he could get me a .097 shim but not with the same material they were originally made as it's, according to me, really hard tempered steel. I don'think any replacement will be as hard except for originals. i think a little less hardened steel shoulkd be fine he 'll check what material he can use , your thoughts welcome. I couldn't check the force required to brake one wheel off but i tried by hand with wheels stopped by somebody else and it kept locked even with all power my friend could handle, and yes bill i am quite lucky as far as my shape, i can still lift the rear end alone with leaf springs on it not to bad for an old retired man thanks god. I'm gonna order al my parts from ratec right after this post and since Quebec is far from you guys will prob come back to the rear end only in a couple weeks The good thing is i have so much to do elsewhere that i won't be stopped, engine done and started sounds great transmission completely rebuilted waiting to be thrown in, paint done suspension and bushings completely done (trunions, torque links done (mat coupe did them) upper and lower control arm bushings and leaf springs bushings plus coil spring cushions waiting to be installed), all brake parts here ready to be installed , I also rebuilted the power steering pump and got the radiator rebuilted by a shop here and the gas tank + heater radiator cleaned. I'll probaly start with the brake and fuel lines as my first part (the gas tank was installed a couple weeks ago. etc.............. |
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Regards,Jean
BBBQ Big Bad Blue Quebec Amx 1969 F150 2013 crv 2016 roadstar 2003 |
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jeanbonjeanbon1
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jan/26/2014 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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hi bad news from ratech they can't ship canada and could only find parts from jeep here by so was wondering if amc20 master bearing shims and seals from jeep catalog was the same and if they'res and if it's year sensitive ie. must be from the same year ?
I ask but i think that any amc 20 are all the same masterkits even twingrips correct me if i'm wrong. I would be glad if somebody could get me a fast answer on that so as i could order thanks
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Regards,Jean
BBBQ Big Bad Blue Quebec Amx 1969 F150 2013 crv 2016 roadstar 2003 |
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1970390amx
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/11/2008 Location: colorado Status: Offline Points: 3314 |
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A model 20 is a model 20. Does not matter what it came out of. Clutches for your twin grip is only concern. Jeep twin grip are newer and will only fit 72 and newer amc. You should be able to find timken bearing set on ebay for model 20
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1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box |
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