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One piece axles and sealed bearings |
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Green AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Feb/16/2012 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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Posted: Jul/14/2018 at 8:08pm |
Anyone running them on the street long term, some people have said they will slip down the shaft under hard cornering. I can't see that Ford has done it this way forever. My reason for asking is my AMX has one axle with a little wobble (suspecting spun hub) ( or it"s 50 years old) also has .030 of end play . So it's comming apart for repairs but thinking I should upgrade. I will be runnig drag radials sometimes and may try to autocross it sometime but mainly on the street. The car has sat alot the last few years but deceiding to go over it and change a few things and drive it
Thanks Steve F
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69 AMX 390 4speed go pack
72 Javelin 360 auto(sons) 82 Spirit (wife's 1st car)still not done |
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WesternRed
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/03/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5808 |
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I'm pretty sure all of the one piece axles run the Timken Set9 bearings or similar, these are tapered bearing packed with grease, so not that different to the factory style other than being held on by the lock ring.
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Not sure why those would slip when the factory rigging didn't.
I don't know how the one-piece bearings are retained in the axle housings, or on the axle, but the factory retaining method (backing plate, or seal plate) held fine. I've not seen the one piece axle bearing setup. I do wonder if they use tapered roller bearings, how do they set the end play? |
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WesternRed
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/03/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5808 |
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No need to set end play with one piece axles.
One piece axles have this arrangement: I think the street durability issue is more with using "Green Bearings", which I believe is a roller bearing, these days they use tapered bearings, which should be more durable.
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Bruce Clarkson
AMC Addicted Joined: Feb/09/2013 Location: New Bern, NC Status: Offline Points: 538 |
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When I replaced the rear wheel bearings and seals on my AMC 20 rear end the end play was better and within factory spec. Perhaps just lucky. At least you can re-shim it if you need to when reassembling to get the desired end play but mine went back together with the factory shims.
Can you tell what's bent? Are the wheel bearings any good? |
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Bruce Clarkson
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Tapered bearings are two piece and would require setting play.
The only way not to is if the bearing is a roller bearing or ball bearing and sealed. The pic shows a "bearing assembly" indicating one piece, so not tapered. Most cars with one piece axles, such as Ford or GM use a ball bearing, etc. - which is fine because they'll take side-loading. That axle looks a lot like what Ford and others use - and those aren't tapered bearings - tapered is like a front wheel bearing. So basically using this setup it's being converted to a style like the big three used instead of the tapered bearing that AMC used. (AMC axles used tapered bearings and that requires a means of setting play because tapered bearings are two piece. ) (Not sure what you mean by "green bearing" - if you mean the seal, well, that could be reddish, black or green, even on ball bearings as I have ball bearings at home that have each of those color seals. For example, the sealed alternator ball bearings in my drawers have an assortment of seal colors, depending on year, maker, etc. - most are black, but some are green or reddish brown, too.)
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WesternRed
AMC Addicted Joined: Aug/03/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5808 |
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"Green Bearings" are more of a brand/style, which I believe is a ball style bearing, they were pretty common for use in Mopar 8 3/4" rear ends in similar situations and there was always discussion that they were not designed/suitable for side loads.
The AMC tapered bearing goes on from the outside end of the axle and hence you need a two piece axle with removable hubs to allow the bearing to be installed/changed and you need to be able to adjust the end play to ensure the right pre-load on the bearing. Once you go to a one piece axle, you have to install the bearing from the inside end and then there is usually a locking collar to make sure that it doesn't slide back off in service (the other option would be c-clip axles as used in some GM cars). Here is a better picture of the actual Moser one piece axle setup, it's basically the same as the one I posted above, typical for Ford rear ends and many others. As I mentioned above, these one piece axles now use a Timken Set9 type bearing, which is a tapered roller bearing. Obviously it is designed not to come apart in service and work with this type of axle setup: With this type of bearing there is no need to set the end play. These bearings are also not fully sealed and can/should be packed with grease. The concerns the OP raised about corner loads are not really an issue with these bearings as they may have been with the old style Green Bearings. Edited by WesternRed - Jul/15/2018 at 12:36am |
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1970390amx
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/11/2008 Location: colorado Status: Offline Points: 3314 |
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Its not the best picture but top axle is a moser axle and the bearing that comes with it, referred to as a green bearing. I just worked on a set of the cut to fit axles and they came with the same bearing. I have seen an older set of moser axles in a car I was working on that had set 9 bearings in it. But I dont know if the shaft diameters are the same. I have been told that the green bearings do not handle the side loads of auto cross as well as the tapered bearings, but are ok for street use.
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1970 390 4speed Bittersweet shadow mask AMX
1970 Amx missing most everything, or in a box |
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Red Devil
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/10/2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1743 |
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The "Set 9" is a special single-row tapered roller bearing that incorporates a rib-ring for bi-directional axial loading - essentially 3 pieces - cup, cone and rib-ring. Timken calls them "Unit Bearings" and they are commonly used with a pressed-on retaining ring for axle shafts. Set 10, Set 20 and Set 80 are some other common Unit Bearings. Moser sells axle shafts for circle track use that have thicker flanges and use the Set 80 bearing - much larger diameter and higher capacity including much stronger bearing retention than the Set 9.
Aftermarket uses Set 9 as it sort of fits the AMC 20 ... but the OD is a bit undersized so loses the tight fit in the housing and my understanding is they use a special retaining ring that is smaller than standard. Compared to the stock single-row bearing with machined shoulder on the shaft and thrust block to the other side, the Set 9 is just not as well retained axially as stock. I haven't seen published load ratings on the Set 9, so not sure how closely it compares to stock? Read Ray Larson's thread "The Story of My Engine" for issues he had after "upgrading" from stock to aftermarket axle shafts and bearings - the shafts would slowly walk out of the housing, dump gear oil and lose rear brakes part way through the race. Don't know if they were the Green ball-bearings or the Timken Set 9, but he fixed it by getting big Ford ends welded on to fit larger bearings with better retention. For general street or drag use, lots have no issues with either the Green sealed ball bearing or the Timken Set 9. If planning hard cornering with track-type tires, may want to consider other options ... like a full-floater 9" and appropriate suspension upgrades to match. Set 9 and the Green ball bearing require different shaft machining to fit. Moser used to have a drawing on their site showing how to machine a shaft that originally had the Green ball bearing to fit the Timken Set 9. Hope this helps,RD
Edited by Red Devil - Jul/15/2018 at 2:01am |
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Green AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Feb/16/2012 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 521 |
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Haven't looked real close yet, I know it didn't hit anything but it does wobble a bit,nad the end play, I've had this car for 32 years and never pulled a axle out on it so i'm thinking bearings are due at a mininum. The car has been kind of a trailer queen,but I decided to start driving it more I haven't done any large shows in a few years and sitting has taken its toll on a few things mechenicaly. 15 years ago it used to see the drag strip a few tmes a year I would like to do that again let people see them in action
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69 AMX 390 4speed go pack
72 Javelin 360 auto(sons) 82 Spirit (wife's 1st car)still not done |
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