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73 Javelin brake and suspension project

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 73 Javelin brake and suspension project
    Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 7:55pm
This isn't going to be to the same level that I took my 70 to as this car is very modified and has had a rough prior life. I'm attempting to give it the TLC that it needs, priority making it safer but nicer as I can.
The car came to me with power DRUM brakes. 73 Javelins had ten inch front drums. 
The brakes worked fine but I gave my front brakes, spindles and all, to my neighbor for his car as I figured I could use the disks of an 80 Concord wagon I'm parting out. Well, yeah - it was REALLY rusty so the shields were mostly gone, rotors very rusty (could be cleaned up I'm sure as they have not been turned before) but it was just a bit much by the time I spent money on all new bearings and seals, new calipers, new pads, having rotors turned, hoses and so on, It wasn't going to save me all that much in the end especially when I considered the time spent.
So I bought the disk brake package amxess had for sale here in the forum and brackets from mrblatzman (both Steve and Bob great to deal with and good parts)
There was no use doing all of that and not deal with the worn out bushings and other parts - the car has over 90,000 miles and again, had a rough prior life.
So, similar to my 70 the entire front suspension is coming off,, all bushings being replaced, ball joints, tie rods, front springs (one was broken and they had twist-in spacers in the coils)
But most parts will be painted and not powder coated like I did with my 70. With that car I powder coated almost everything including the coil springs!
This will be a sort of show car, but mostly a fun car. 
the process started a full year ago when i told my neighbor that if he'd come over and pull the front brakes and spindles he could have them. It's been up on stands all this time. Time to get it finished up and back on the road. 
As you can see here - the strut rod bushings are TOAST. One was literally mushy and falling apart. (and started to wear the bracket hole)
The lowers are from my 70 - I put NOS lower control arms on it and saved those because at that time they had only about 25,000 miles on them. So I cleaned and painted them and put in new bushings.
The uppers are CRUSTY, greasy, nasty and will take a couple of hours just for basic cleaning. 
Spring supports are rebuilt and nice with new bushings and fresh paint. Most parts are here except upper ball joints and those are coming from Amazon the first of next week. 



Maybe you can see the PO patched the battery area, not really well but better than a hole I guess.



Left side - haven't gotten the control arms off yet - do have one of the bolts out of the upper. Have to scrape tons of grease and gunk before I can get the lower off this side......



Parts, some ready to go...



More parts and the springs from another 73 I'll be using...



Spring supports all rebuilt and ready, most of the new suspension parts......





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 8:40pm
Billd, i dont think anyone here will make a comment on what works best, or how they would substitute for a diff part. Most of us will just sit and watch with a beer in hand to see how you go about a complete front end rebuild, it a rarity on the forum, as most threads are varied in depth. I did not notice if you plan on tie rod ends and steering as you are deep in the parts replacement area.

We pretty much know you will pay good money for parts that are proper or in this particular case, are worth buying. IMO NOS is best and can be more economical in the long run. As NOS parts can be 2x or even 3x the money for your average part. I think you have been very vocal on keeping up on clarifying other people's threads, expecting the new or less experienced to know reasons why one did or chose something, when not pointed out or overlooked in discussion.

Not sure, but i do believe you chose old stock Moog over new? Not that we are to have a long drawn discussion on pros and cons, just it may help to have some help on parts selecting if, you had to obtain bushings, brake components and ball joints from a fresh at home rebuild.

Just thinking out loud, as it is early and enough time to put some input in on your thoughts before things may jumble around.

71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 9:35pm
Bill,
You probably know you are missing the top polymer on the torsion bar in your picture. If you haven't already ordered the parts, Mustang torsion bar connecting bolts are the same and cheaper to buy the bolts and bushings set then just the AMC bushings.
Have you taken the fenders off and looked at the troughs? They are structural and can be repaired.
The gas line going through the frame - have a good look, mine was half eaten/worn away.
Dust shields I made myself, 18 gauge and a bead roller. Template was the old rust shield - all it was good for. A little tighter to the disk but no issues.
If yours had the same tough life as mine check the frame for square and bend. Mine was out of square 3/8" and 1/2" twist. Braces and Enerpack got it back, alignment 0.01° thrust line and 0.002° front to back frame. Mine came with sub frame connectors so I cut them off and replaced with same (new fabrication) after straightening.
Mine was never registered for the street so I believe it was race or other special order, just guessing by the twisting, sub frame connectors, rear end yanked out more then once and transmission casing pieces ripped into the rockers.
Have fun:)
    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/09/2018 at 10:56pm
Lyle I wish you could have seen the link on that bar on the right side...... the bolt had broken and hammered on the lower part so much it had worn it smooth and the upper part still in the bar was now bent and worn smooth. Obviously it had been broken for a lot of miles. I knew it was broken but was waiting until it was all apart. 
I thought I had a link kit (the long bolts, spacers, washers and rubber bushings) from another project I didn't need..... if I don't.
For one of my other cars I bought a kit at NAPA - it was less than twenty bucks and since they are pretty universal, I just told them what I wanted, no need to specify the car. 

On the dust shields - I have none. The ones from the Concord I was GOING to use the brakes from were so rotted there wasn't anything to get a pattern from.
Fourth photo down shows remains of the better one in the far left part of the picture. And those were Bendix brakes.
I bought the heavy-duty KH brakes from amxess here on the forum - the setup he had for sale for 300.
He had everything except the shields - so I'll be looking for a pair.
I have NO shields at all - nothing, zip - I really would want shields because they also help with road splash,, etc. and it rains a lot and our old roads hold water and the roads are dirty after winter's sand trucks keep laying down a beach worth of sand each winter.
So if I can find the proper shields for THESE brakes, I'd be happier.

I don't have to pull the fenders to know about the gussets - the front ends are rotted about an inch or two back from the front. They appear solid otherwise but the left one is also needing attention where it joins the car at the back - I can stick a finger between the back end of the gusset and the firewall area up in the wheel well.
And I know the right front has been welded back of the headlight and where the upper rad support connects.
I will be pulling fenders in the future, but I know I need to work on the gussets at the front and on the left side, MAYBE at the rear. (I REALLY wish I was a much better welder!)

The car seems straight - things line up really nice, no odd gaps, no broken glass - all original glass, tires didn't wear weird (odd for the shot bushings I'm finding)
Anyway, I DO need to replace or rather REPAIR the gussets - I suspect only the front couple of inches.
I have a NOS left fender, would LOVE to find a new right fender as well.
My take on the car after owing it for 2.5 years is that it sat for several years,, the prior owner did some patching, replaced carpet, replaced the floor sills (and left out the seat belt anchor points but that's another topic!)
Basically the car is an unfinished project - and the PO said as much. He was a paint guy, not a mechanic and was really bad with electric and interior work. 
All I'm missing are the upper ball joints - and I think I have the "sway bar" links in a tub of parts.
It needs shocked (one was broken and the other was bent and had zero resistance up or down)

304 - I know it was impossible to tell from the photo because it was all boxes and such - but there are two inner and two outer tie rods in there, new sleeves and clamps and bolts and nuts.
I did forget to order an idler arm but I haven't checked this one yet - it will likely get replaced either now or soon ,but the tie rods - all four ends are already bought and in those boxes.
I had NOS lower control arm bushings but it's not wear or use - it's AGE that also kills rubber parts, so I opted to not use the NOS bushings when I saw one of them already had a crack starting. 
I had two sets of upper control arms on the shelf and the arms still in the Concord besides those in this car - will pull them all and lay them out and choose the best of the four sets/pairs to use. 

Calipers brand new, rotors brand new, bearings and seals brand new, pads brand new, caliper brackets new, hoses brand new (and bought the rear brake hose too while I was at it) so all brake hoses will be new. I plan on new brake lines, especially after seeing the brown/gray mud that was in the old master cylinder. Can't flush that out well enough.

I laid the Concord rotors on my bench next to the NEW rotors and it appears like I may have to space my spindles out about two washer thicknesses - that's a GUESS only, based on how the surfaces of the rotor sit compared to the bearing areas. I'll know that later when I dry fit everything. 
I plan on doing a dry fit, mocking things up, not tightening anything until I see how things fit and where I may need spacers. 

Again, it won't be the perfect pain-staking restoration of my 70 front end, I spent a ton of time, efforts cleaning and totally de-rusting, powder coating, NOS control arms and more, on that. I left no stone unturned. It was also a 25,000 car when I did that so there wasn't wear, it was just time and bushing rot that needed fixing there. Even the cross member got blasted,  treated and powder coated on that car. I cleaned every part one at a time in my electrolysis bucket, phosphate treated, powder coated, etc.
This will be good, it will be safe, it will be better than it ever was before (the HD disk brakes will see to that) but it won't be an AMO show car. 
On the other hand I am already struggling with "where do I stop" and having to really try very very hard to resist the urge to make it perfect. My Eagle was supposed to be a "get it on the road and paint it" daily driver car and ended up with a car good enough to get a high score at AMO (and a trophy)
I just MUST resist the urge to do this one to such standards......... I may need someone to come by and hold me back on it now and then. I cant afford the time and money to do another car like I did that one. (and it's STILL not done - I have another tub of NOS parts to put into it)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/10/2018 at 6:13am
About holding back... one thing that may help. Always keep function a priority, limiting on how much does perfect look effect costs. But it seems your wife knows you best, so have her manage your car. Tell her what's most important... safety, and proper fit with a limit on costs, having comparisons of what is available. Then she either OKs or disproves.

I know you cannot help your self with being use to doing things your way on your car's and others. Spend time with my cousin, and eventually seeing how he can do things on bare minimum, can break your locked in thoughts of what is proper. Not saying an old rusty item will do the job just as well... Seems you broke me from commenting on ideas on not using NOS, because your locked in on it.

I don't see the parts you got as an issue, but in some ways, they be over kill, only by that they are NOS. Considering you may have saved some coin in hunting at the next swap meet, your standards my have made 3 events unfruitful. So taking the plugs to get such parts is a bit of a god send. The best example I could think of is my parts I sold from my car. I could not replace them to the same or better without some extra costs, if i were to return it back to stock. Not that I sold low, just by overall condition. Even back then in 2005 not every thing being offered was of 80s and 90s condition. An easter egg hunt for most, and especially now. I am lucky with being able to keep things frugal while still opting for the better made products available over the counter. Time to be so was and still is not part of the equation. Knowing you want to get it done, makes time part of your equation.

Ah, about NOS bushings... i understand about that, and has been part of your posts here and there... you just cant trust old rubber to stay perfect over time, no matter NOS or od stock OEM replacements. Just assumed you got a good OEM replacement set from NAPA or whoever.

71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/10/2018 at 7:36am
NAPA - arggg! - new engine seals installed and leaked after 2 months of service. Still had the boxes, 18 year old seals by the date code on the box, looked after the fact - dumb I know. 
In the Nuclear industry they didn't last two years on the shelf and were changed every 10 to 12.
Yes, old elastomers are just that, expect reduced service life.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/10/2018 at 8:52am
Lyle - The sway bar links I bought were basically exactly the same as the originals I took out of my 70 and they are still i the car and still look like new.. There's little that could go wrong there unless it was a cheap grade 2 bolt or something. 
However, that was years ago so........ and yes things like seals and rubber parts - beware and check dates, dust on the box, etc. I hear ya.

Dude I have no clue what you are really trying to say - as they used to say on Laugh-In "you lost me at the bakery".  Totally.
As far as doing something right - that's the only way I know. Part is my education and history - been at it since age 14 and worked for two "old timers" who were the very best in the game. You never wanted any come-backs. Besides - no, I can't do any other way and no, crusty/rusty parts won't do. You have no clue as you have not dealt with ADHD nor are you OCD. 
When someone sends something my way they know when they get it back it will work, it will be right.

Now some things I understand about not being able to use the very best first time - sometimes something can't be had or there's no money - but suspension, steering and brakes are one thing I will never do a second time. If I can't do it right once - I wait.
I don't mind swapping out marker lights, tail lights, trim, a clock, seat trim, a door handle,
but other things it's DUMB to do it two times. Why spend hours on something and then later do it all over again. Do you enjoy taking out springs so you can swap parts and spending half a day doing it again?

Not sure where the constant talk of NOS keeps coming in - nothing in the pictures was NOS except perhaps the tie rod sleeves (and I wasn't trying, there) or perhaps the rear brake hose brass block (again, not trying, it was the first thing I found)
Otherwise NONE of the brake parts - NONE - are NOS. They are NORS. Not one of those parts came from an AMC dealership in AMC boxes. The only NOS brake parts are what I got from Bob - and again, I'd have taken used ones but good luck - all I could find at the time were what Bob had and his price matched what used ones would have likely sold for on eBay. Can't beat a brand new bracket for twenty bucks - did you have a set you'd have sold me for that? 
Did you LOOK at the pictures? Do you know what those yellow boxes are? Not NOS.
The calipers and their brackets were painted silver - hardly NOS. New parts, yes - but not directly from the AMC factory. 
They are nice, EXCELLENT parts and a great deal. I knew what I was getting and am 110% happy with them and would do it again. But new, not NOS. 
I don't want amxess/Steve to get the wrong idea - I KNEW what the parts were and that is why I bought them.
The deal was good, the parts were very very good and I'd do it all over again. These will make GREAT brakes and I'm TOTALLY happy with the deal AND the parts - ZERO negatives there. 
(Of course we know AMC didn't make their own brakes so you could hardly truly buy NOS brake parts.)
I'm simply trying to explain to someone who apparently doesn't get it that I wasn't holding out for NOS parts and geesh, I shouldn't have to justify what I'm doing to a certain person on every single project.

Quote About holding back... one thing that may help. Always keep function a priority, limiting on how much does perfect look effect costs. But it seems your wife knows you best, so have her manage your car. Tell her what's most important... safety, and proper fit with a limit on costs, having comparisons of what is available. Then she either OKs or disproves.


Why do you keep trying to tell me how to run things? Really, I get a lot of lectures but you don't know me or my work. I've done this probably longer than you've even been driving. 
My wife always says "do it right or don't do it at all" and "don't cheap out, you know you'll just end up buying it again later". She's a perfectionist. (you'd know that by now if you paid attention and stopped trying to train me)
I was half-joking, a point those who know me or try to would have gotten and understood. But again, I know one way of doing something, and that's safe and right. The finish or removal of rust, etc. is a matter of my "medical situation" and cannot be changed, at least not easily. (too bad more people don't strive for perfection or totally enjoy a job well done to the best of their ability)

Anyway, PLEASE REFRAIN - this is about my car and how I am doing it - not your attempts at psycho-analyzing things.

I am truly absolutely afraid to post a thing about my projects for fear you will pop in with a rant about me, my personality and how I do things. My fears were not unfounded.

Quote Not sure, but i do believe you chose old stock Moog over new? Not that we are to have a long drawn discussion on pros and cons, just it may help to have some help on parts selecting if, you had to obtain bushings, brake components and ball joints from a fresh at home rebuild.


Wow, I was right - you are clueless and TOTALLY wrong. Why do you keep trying to TEACH ME when I have taught this stuff to others over the years? I'll put my knowledge of cars up against you any day of the week. 
First, those are NEW parts, not "old stock Moog". good grief - you really don't have a clue.
The last thing I need is you telling me how to select parts. How the heck long have you been doing this?
Me since the early 1970s - and I have the trophies to prove it and the certificates and the degree and the letters of recommendation. Did your state's biggest AMC/Jeep dealership call you out of the blue and offer you the service manager position - based only on reputation? Did you ace the Plymouth Troubleshooting written test- a record never broken, and set record time to judging with only one point lost (a hose was above another in a clip and they should have been reversed in the clip but the connections were correct)
I've done more suspension and brake work than you'll ever do in your life - I used to make my living at it. 

Why is it that you keep trying to fix me when others, like Lyle, Red Devil and others are very helpful with solid information?

Sorry, folks, but I'm at wit's end with that BS.
I may or may not post again in this thread.



Edited by billd - Mar/10/2018 at 8:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/11/2018 at 5:11pm
Just couldn't help myself - was doing some other parts for other projects and decided, what the heck, can't stand rust on tie rod sleeves. I've done too many dozens and dozens of alignments where the sleeves were rusted to the tie rod ends and have to heat or beat or whatever. 
Not these - and they sure do look pretty.
Also plated the threaded end of the right strut rod to help slow any rust........  will do left after I get it removed and cleaned up.

Yellow bright zinc on the sleeves and black zinc on the clamps and yellow zinc grade 8 bolts and lock nuts.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pit crew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/11/2018 at 6:15pm
Over the top Bill. LOL

73 Hornet - 401EFI - THM400 - Twin Grip 20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/11/2018 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by pit crew pit crew wrote:

Over the top Bill. LOL

Ya really think so?
Man, they sure are pretty in person.
Hey, if the interior can be Pierre Cardin, the underside can have some art, too. LOL
If I had time I had actually thought about bright zinc plating some of the suspension parts - naw, would take forever.
The rest will get painted. 
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